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England 2021/22

HamJan

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Eddie's on record many times saying that the pressure on promising young players new to the international scene, from a demanding and fickle media can affect their ability to adapt to test match rugby. There's a lot of hype around Smith today in the same way there was around Itoje five or six years ago, when media and the fans were all demanding that Eddie threw him in at the deep end rather than easing him in. Eddie was insistent then, as he is now, that it's not always in the players best interest to do that.

Since the squad has been announced, the media and public interest has been more about Farrell than Smith, which, to me, is a good thing. Smith can concentrate on his game and Farrell can help to ease the pressure.
 

ncurd

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Eddie's on record many times saying that the pressure on promising young players new to the international scene, from a demanding and fickle media can affect their ability to adapt to test match rugby. There's a lot of hype around Smith today in the same way there was around Itoje five or six years ago, when media and the fans were all demanding that Eddie threw him in at the deep end rather than easing him in. Eddie was insistent then, as he is now, that it's not always in the players best interest to do that.

Since the squad has been announced, the media and public interest has been more about Farrell than Smith, which, to me, is a good thing. Smith can concentrate on his game and Farrell can help to ease the pressure.
But we have thrown Smith at the deep end already against South Africa! If I were easing him in I'd be using Ford as a starter with him on the bench who both play a far more similar game. Farrell shouldn't be anywhere near the side due to injury and shocking form for the last 2.5 years.
 

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Eddie's on record many times saying that the pressure on promising young players new to the international scene, from a demanding and fickle media can affect their ability to adapt to test match rugby. There's a lot of hype around Smith today in the same way there was around Itoje five or six years ago, when media and the fans were all demanding that Eddie threw him in at the deep end rather than easing him in. Eddie was insistent then, as he is now, that it's not always in the players best interest to do that.

Since the squad has been announced, the media and public interest has been more about Farrell than Smith, which, to me, is a good thing. Smith can concentrate on his game and Farrell can help to ease the pressure.
That is a good point, though i would counter that by saying Smith took the pressure of the prem semi final coming back from 28 - 0 down and winning the prem final then backing it up for England and the Lions without even his kicking % dropping, but it is a valid point, much like all the stupid stuff EJ used say and to do in the media getting the spotlight firmly on himself and off the team.

But it may take the pressure off smith but doesnt mean Faz will have a performance that hinders the team by lack of match fitness...
 

TRF_Olyy

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Is Manu training or still injured?
Due back next weekend, I think - though there's talk that he's had a setback in training (he's been out for ages with a hamstring so I wouldn't be surprised if that's led to a back injury due to being lopsided - it's usually the case)
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Eddie's on record many times saying that the pressure on promising young players new to the international scene, from a demanding and fickle media can affect their ability to adapt to test match rugby. There's a lot of hype around Smith today in the same way there was around Itoje five or six years ago, when media and the fans were all demanding that Eddie threw him in at the deep end rather than easing him in. Eddie was insistent then, as he is now, that it's not always in the players best interest to do that.

Since the squad has been announced, the media and public interest has been more about Farrell than Smith, which, to me, is a good thing. Smith can concentrate on his game and Farrell can help to ease the pressure.
The thing is Smith has already played at the top level club wise and has been instrumental in Quins winning last season. He has beaten the world champs and played in the Lions also against the world champs. If he isn't ready now then arguably he never will be as the only things left are actually playing in world cup knockout stages.

Jones has also been happy chucking players in at the deep end before.
 

Reiser99

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Due back next weekend, I think - though there's talk that he's had a setback in training (he's been out for ages with a hamstring so I wouldn't be surprised if that's led to a back injury due to being lopsided - it's usually the case)
I'll keep saying it, he shouldn't be near the team or squad until he proves he can stay fit. Waste of time bringing him back and not finding a permanent solution to the midfield issue and hope that he will be fit come the world cup.
 

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Eddie's on record many times saying that the pressure on promising young players new to the international scene, from a demanding and fickle media can affect their ability to adapt to test match rugby. There's a lot of hype around Smith today in the same way there was around Itoje five or six years ago, when media and the fans were all demanding that Eddie threw him in at the deep end rather than easing him in. Eddie was insistent then, as he is now, that it's not always in the players best interest to do that.

Since the squad has been announced, the media and public interest has been more about Farrell than Smith, which, to me, is a good thing. Smith can concentrate on his game and Farrell can help to ease the pressure.
Sometimes I think we are way over cautious in the way we introduce players and sometimes too cavalier.

A lot depends on the individual player. Smith doesn’t need wet nursing, all he needs is the freedom to do what’s got him selected in the first place with the acceptance that will come with a few mistakes. He’s already been in the public eye for years as the golden boy, has several club seasons under his belt and has experienced a bit of rough and smooth with Quins. As far as I can see his head doesn’t drop too badly when he does make mistakes. He is the future and should have been involved earlier.

Someone like Bailey is an entirely different proposition.
 

Teddington Logic

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Anyone who thinks that Smith and Ford play a similar game really doesn't watch enough rugby

Whilst they have a similar kicking ability, that is where it ends. They use their kicking game game differently due to the nature/philosophy of the teams that they play within.

Smith's running game is completely different level to Fords which also means that Smith can kick for himself to recover the ball where as Ford prefers the spiral bomb to hope for a mistake from the opposition. Both of course being totally valid tactics


Jones wants flexibility within his squad. If he picks one specialist FH to start they he will always go for players on the bench who can cover at least 2 positions rather than a specialist FH. This is why he will try and start with Farrell at 12 and have Marchant/Malins in his match day squad and why he used to have Daly somewhere every game. He looks at his 2nd/back row in exactly the same way. That is why Ford is not there. Once Jones has decided that Smith is his 10 through to the World Cup, Ford does not get in a Jones match day squad unless Smith is injured. It is a real p1sser for Ford (great for Tigers/Sale) but is a result of Jones's match day strategy rather than Farrell being undropable

What people seem to forget, when describing Smith as young/promising is that Smith has been Quins first choice FH for 4 years. He has got way more experience than either Farrell or Ford had when they first started playing for England and he has demonstrated time and again that he is a player who absolutely thrives under pressure and when he can win games from lost positions.

Jones knows this. Smith knows this. Jones has got everyone talking about Ford/Bailey/Barbeary/Farrell. Job done
 

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I'll keep saying it, he shouldn't be near the team or squad until he proves he can stay fit. Waste of time bringing him back and not finding a permanent solution to the midfield issue and hope that he will be fit come the world cup.
Meh, play him when he's fit, he's out injured enough that we can find other guys when he's not there
i.e. now
 

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)

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Ford by the age Marcus is had been in
3 Prem finals
1 European challenge cup
93 games for Tigers and Bath

So don't get the had way more comment.
 

HamJan

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But we have thrown Smith at the deep end already against South Africa! If I were easing him in I'd be using Ford as a starter with him on the bench who both play a far more similar game. Farrell shouldn't be anywhere near the side due to injury and shocking form for the last 2.5 years.
Yes we have and he stood up to the test. However, if Farrell was still out of the equation, the media and the public would build Smith up to super hero status ready to kick him down if he doesn't perform to their expectations. The English media can be savage when it turns on a player and I reckon Eddie's being clever in shielding Smith in placing all media attention for the next couple of weeks on Farrell.

Your point about using Ford as a mentor, rather than Farrell, is a valid point, but Smith and Ford are out and out 10s whereas Farrell can play 10 / 12, thereby increasing the flexibility on the bench.
 

HamJan

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Anyone who thinks that Smith and Ford play a similar game really doesn't watch enough rugby

Whilst they have a similar kicking ability, that is where it ends. They use their kicking game game differently due to the nature/philosophy of the teams that they play within.

Smith's running game is completely different level to Fords which also means that Smith can kick for himself to recover the ball where as Ford prefers the spiral bomb to hope for a mistake from the opposition. Both of course being totally valid tactics


Jones wants flexibility within his squad. If he picks one specialist FH to start they he will always go for players on the bench who can cover at least 2 positions rather than a specialist FH. This is why he will try and start with Farrell at 12 and have Marchant/Malins in his match day squad and why he used to have Daly somewhere every game. He looks at his 2nd/back row in exactly the same way. That is why Ford is not there. Once Jones has decided that Smith is his 10 through to the World Cup, Ford does not get in a Jones match day squad unless Smith is injured. It is a real p1sser for Ford (great for Tigers/Sale) but is a result of Jones's match day strategy rather than Farrell being undropable

What people seem to forget, when describing Smith as young/promising is that Smith has been Quins first choice FH for 4 years. He has got way more experience than either Farrell or Ford had when they first started playing for England and he has demonstrated time and again that he is a player who absolutely thrives under pressure and when he can win games from lost positions.

Jones knows this. Smith knows this. Jones has got everyone talking about Ford/Bailey/Barbeary/Farrell. Job done
THIS (insert arrow pointing upwards)
 

HamJan

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The thing is Smith has already played at the top level club wise and has been instrumental in Quins winning last season. He has beaten the world champs and played in the Lions also against the world champs. If he isn't ready now then arguably he never will be as the only things left are actually playing in world cup knockout stages.

Jones has also been happy chucking players in at the deep end before.
There's no doubting Smith's talent or his all round game, but Eddie reckons he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world for the next ten years or so, and to help him to achieve this he's deflecting the inevitable pressure by not rushing him. I Remember Danny Cipriani's international debut where the media and the public were drooling about him being the saviour of English rugby because of his huge talent, and despite everybody screaming to see him in an England shirt again, he was overlooked by Ashton, Johnson, Lancaster and Eddie because he couldn't handle the pressure in his early years.

I'm not saying that Smith and Cipriani are cut from the same cloth, but media pressure nowadays is far more intense than it was 10 to 20 years ago and Eddie's helping to deflect some of it to allow Smith longevity.
 

HamJan

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If you're good enough you're old enough

Tom Curry is only 8months older than Smith and started a RWC final 3 years ago
Tom Curry isn't the key strategist in the team, and nor is he the kicker. Tom Curry is a freak of nature.
 

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There's no doubting Smith's talent or his all round game, but Eddie reckons he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world for the next ten years or so, and to help him to achieve this he's deflecting the inevitable pressure by not rushing him. I Remember Danny Cipriani's international debut where the media and the public were drooling about him being the saviour of English rugby because of his huge talent, and despite everybody screaming to see him in an England shirt again, he was overlooked by Ashton, Johnson, Lancaster and Eddie because he couldn't handle the pressure in his early years.

I'm not saying that Smith and Cipriani are cut from the same cloth, but media pressure nowadays is far more intense than it was 10 to 20 years ago and Eddie's helping to deflect some of it to allow Smith longevity.
I agree with some of that, but it’s a bit unfair on Cipriani. Injury really robbed him of the chance to build on that debut.

Also worth bearing in mind that the England team is a lot better than it was in that era. We probably needed a saviour/successor to Jonny then. Smith can make us much better, but he doesn’t need to save us.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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There's no doubting Smith's talent or his all round game, but Eddie reckons he has the potential to be one of the best players in the world for the next ten years or so, and to help him to achieve this he's deflecting the inevitable pressure by not rushing him. I Remember Danny Cipriani's international debut where the media and the public were drooling about him being the saviour of English rugby because of his huge talent, and despite everybody screaming to see him in an England shirt again, he was overlooked by Ashton, Johnson, Lancaster and Eddie because he couldn't handle the pressure in his early years.

I'm not saying that Smith and Cipriani are cut from the same cloth, but media pressure nowadays is far more intense than it was 10 to 20 years ago and Eddie's helping to deflect some of it to allow Smith longevity.
Cipriani fell out of favour because he was a *** and that continued long after his youth. Even now his ethic at Bath at least has been awful. It's easy to say pressure got to him but more likely is that is just who he is. Smith has not displayed any signs of being like that and is far from some young, inexperienced player being hyped up without reason. The likes of Curry, Itoje, Underhill all cemented their places as 1st team starters about the same age as Smith is now, with Farrell and Ford getting into the team even younger.

I can understand Jones being careful, I can't understand claiming Smith needs Farrell there to hold his hand and help him out, he's proven he doesn't need that so why say it?
 

ncurd

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I can understand Jones being careful, I can't understand claiming Smith needs Farrell there to hold his hand and help him out, he's proven he doesn't need that so why say it?
Especially the shite Farrell we've seen in recent years, I was far from him his biggest fan but he's completely shat the bed on international rugby for the past 2 years. So what if he covers more positions than Ford he covers them badly!
 

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Farrell = struggled to keep his cool, struggled with pressure has loads of experience though (not that it shows)

Smith = prem, England, lions shown no signs of losing his cool and played well at every level so far


Sorry which one needs babying? I think smith should be babysitting Farrell rather than the other way sound.

I really want us to just pick Atkinson and stick with him at 12 this 6 nations. Give him a chance and at the WC bring back Manu at 12 with Atkinson as back up.
 
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