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England 2022/23

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Old Hooker

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That stat’s interesting but not a deal breaker in itself. Penalties conceded and the rubbish ball the 8 / 9 have to deal with are part of the story.

The biggest deal though is the psychological effect of a dominant scrum - on both teams. It really is a big thing. If we can’t dominate we should have a minimum expectation that an England side will be rock solid in all the set pieces.

The orcs on roids feels a long time ago.
 

LIONSxv

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Proudfoot working from the inside to bring us down
On a serious note his role needs looking at. Our scrum has regressed significantly in the last 3 years.
Our tight 5 (SAaside) are generally a similar weight to most top tier nations. Therefore technique and tactics need questioning
 
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Old Hooker

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On a serious note his role needs looking at. Our scrum has regressed significantly in the last 3 years.
Our tight 5 (SAaside) are generally a similar weight to most top tier nations. Therefore technique and tactics need questioning
Agreed.

But where I do have a certain sympathy for Jones is that the way a lot of clubs are playing doesn’t really translate to the national stage.

For example, Saints are fantastic on the eye but couldn’t scrummage their way out of a wet paper bag. Bristol, Irish and Quins can be great fun to watch but you score 40, we’ll score 41 doesn’t really translate to the national stage where it’s harder to score and easier to concede.

Unless the clubs are really attending to the fundamentals it restricts the coach’s choice.

None of which is to excuse the current national set up for palpably failing to get the best out of the available talent.
 

Crash Hamster

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Agreed.

But where I do have a certain sympathy for Jones is that the way a lot of clubs are playing doesn’t really translate to the national stage.

For example, Saints are fantastic on the eye but couldn’t scrummage their way out of a wet paper bag. Bristol, Irish and Quins can be great fun to watch but you score 40, we’ll score 41 doesn’t really translate to the national stage where it’s harder to score and easier to concede.

Unless the clubs are really attending to the fundamentals it restricts the coach’s choice.

None of which is to excuse the current national set up for palpably failing to get the best out of the available talent.
You're not wrong, but there are nevertheless problems with this logic. If Saints can't scrummage, why do we have a Saints second row in the squad, as opposed to say a Leicester player?

If it's harder to score, why not pick a side who are better at scoring?

Following on from that, if English domestic rugby is an exciting game to watch, with lots of tries, why not accept that that's the sort of player we produce and base a side around it, rather than trying to clone Wade Dooley like some sort of over-tall Dolly the Sheep? You hit the nail on the head with 'palpably failing to get the best out of the available talent'; it has to be possible to coach an attacking side to defend; it's certainly not working by trying to coach an defensive side to attack.
 

Old Hooker

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You're not wrong, but there are nevertheless problems with this logic. If Saints can't scrummage, why do we have a Saints second row in the squad, as opposed to say a Leicester player?

If it's harder to score, why not pick a side who are better at scoring?

Following on from that, if English domestic rugby is an exciting game to watch, with lots of tries, why not accept that that's the sort of player we produce and base a side around it, rather than trying to clone Wade Dooley like some sort of over-tall Dolly the Sheep? You hit the nail on the head with 'palpably failing to get the best out of the available talent'; it has to be possible to coach an attacking side to defend; it's certainly not working by trying to coach an defensive side to attack.
Great counter.

Ref Coles - he seems to be a hybrid of the type favoured by Jones, locking v Arg but reverting to 6 when the scrum meisters came to town. A lot of people aren’t huge fans of hybrids at 6 - well I’m not a fan of them in the row, although I’d be prepared to make an exception for Lawes who I’ve always thought is a class act.

An attacking emphasis is great, but doesn’t really tend to cut it in the knock out stages of the RWC or even over the course of the 6N. If you want consistently winning rugby I’d argue that set piece / defence / discipline must be the building blocks. But not the be all and end all - it shouldn’t be an either / or. The ABs have historically kicked as much as anyone but where they’ve always excelled is picking their moments to attack and then executing well.

But if we could clone Dooley…..
 

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Great counter.

Ref Coles - he seems to be a hybrid of the type favoured by Jones, locking v Arg but reverting to 6 when the scrum meisters came to town. A lot of people aren’t huge fans of hybrids at 6 - well I’m not a fan of them in the row, although I’d be prepared to make an exception for Lawes who I’ve always thought is a class act.

An attacking emphasis is great, but doesn’t really tend to cut it in the knock out stages of the RWC or even over the course of the 6N. If you want consistently winning rugby I’d argue that set piece / defence / discipline must be the building blocks. But not the be all and end all - it shouldn’t be an either / or. The ABs have historically kicked as much as anyone but where they’ve always excelled is picking their moments to attack and then executing well.

But if we could clone Dooley…..
Back in the day, the 8 would move up rather than 6.
 

Geordiefalcon

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It really bugs me...and im sorry for being a broken down record player...but if you want a lock sized 6 whos a powerhouse...dont move a lock back...pick Ted Hill!!! An actual 6, good in the lineout, some real phsyciallity to match the boks etc...and a Captain / Leader.
 

Reiser99

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Ref Coles - he seems to be a hybrid of the type favoured by Jones, locking v Arg but reverting to 6 when the scrum meisters came to town. A lot of people aren’t huge fans of hybrids at 6 - well I’m not a fan of them in the row, although I’d be prepared to make an exception for Lawes who I’ve always thought is a class act.
This has been one of EJ's complete failures personally. Sticking to this ridiculous notion that he can build a team of hybrid players who can play anywhere on the pitch. It hasn't worked and players instead of adding to their specialised roles actually seem to have lost some of their specialist skills in the process. It's not to say players can't have multiple skillsets or cover a position, but trying to make the back and second rows interchangeable was never going to work. However, he still picks players who can go in both even if they aren't the best player for their position.
 

Crash Hamster

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This has been one of EJ's complete failures personally. Sticking to this ridiculous notion that he can build a team of hybrid players who can play anywhere on the pitch. It hasn't worked and players instead of adding to their specialised roles actually seem to have lost some of their specialist skills in the process. It's not to say players can't have multiple skillsets or cover a position, but trying to make the back and second rows interchangeable was never going to work. However, he still picks players who can go in both even if they aren't the best player for their position.
See also inside centre...

(and at times most of the back 3)
 

TRF_Olyy

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Also asking 9s to play a certain way but ignoring 9s who excel at playing that way (see: Ben Spencer)
 

Geordiefalcon

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Sorry a different subject but has anyone seen the latest rule change proposal ..about a power sin bin. The captain of the opposition can make one play a game where they nominate an opposition player to hit the bin for 10 mins?

Please tell me this is a wind up...not actually a proposal they are considering...
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Sorry a different subject but has anyone seen the latest rule change proposal ..about a power sin bin. The captain of the opposition can make one play a game where they nominate an opposition player to hit the bin for 10 mins?

Please tell me this is a wind up...not actually a proposal they are considering...
Apparently an idea that is being floated but they would be insane to actually implement it. Then again, the RFU seem to be pretty clueless about all things related to the sport and management, they're all in it for one big jolly and might think this would be a bit of added hilarity.
 

Scotty

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Sorry a different subject but has anyone seen the latest rule change proposal ..about a power sin bin. The captain of the opposition can make one play a game where they nominate an opposition player to hit the bin for 10 mins?

Please tell me this is a wind up...not actually a proposal they are considering...
Can you clarify this? At any point the captain can take any player off for 10 on the opposition team for 10? So if your a quins style attacking team you'd just take off a winger or 13 to norrow defence and wait till last 10 but then the oppositoon cpuld just take off your most attacking player or take your 10 off.

This should never be implemented its stupid

although it would be interested to see a tournent around this where you can only take a player off once and it happens the whole game. Not because i think the rule has any meric for rugby but just because id like to see how it used tacticly though a game...still a stupid rule though.
 

Old Hooker

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I’ve diverted the rule change stuff to a different thread. In the meantime…..

The England team doctor has now resigned.

Also a guy called Danny Kerry joined the set up in mid October as a coaching co-ordinator. I’d never heard of him, but apparently he’s very highly regarded having led the women’s hockey team to gold in Rio among other achievements. Brief was to improve dressing room culture. Apparently he nearly resigned at the start of November and is again considering his position.

RFU declining to comment on either. But whatever you think of these individually there’s a pretty clear, and not very attractive, picture being painted.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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I’ve diverted the rule change stuff to a different thread. In the meantime…..

The England team doctor has now resigned.

Also a guy called Danny Kerry joined the set up in mid October as a coaching co-ordinator. I’d never heard of him, but apparently he’s very highly regarded having led the women’s hockey team to gold in Rio among other achievements. Brief was to improve dressing room culture. Apparently he nearly resigned at the start of November and is again considering his position.

RFU declining to comment on either. But whatever you think of these individually there’s a pretty clear, and not very attractive, picture being painted.
Did he become head coach at a club though? That seems the usual justification for turnover if staff.
 

Crash Hamster

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I’ve diverted the rule change stuff to a different thread. In the meantime…..

The England team doctor has now resigned.

Also a guy called Danny Kerry joined the set up in mid October as a coaching co-ordinator. I’d never heard of him, but apparently he’s very highly regarded having led the women’s hockey team to gold in Rio among other achievements. Brief was to improve dressing room culture. Apparently he nearly resigned at the start of November and is again considering his position.

RFU declining to comment on either. But whatever you think of these individually there’s a pretty clear, and not very attractive, picture being painted.
Once is happenstance, twice is co-incidence, the third time is enemy action.

I'm not sure the rule goes into double figures, assuming that most sensible people will have worked it out by the 'enemy action' stage, but there really is one common denominator.
 

Old Hooker

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From Kerry’s Wikipedia. Probably explains why he’s wondering what he’s walked into…..


Kerry made changes to his coaching following feedback after his role as head coach at the 2008 Olympics.[6]

He emphasises that 'culture precedes performance' and the importance of common purpose.[7] He encourages his players to consider scenarios and to work out for themselves how to 'find a way' in game situations
 

Reiser99

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At this stage some of the coaches have to accept some blame for not doing their homework on Jones. Having said that maybe they just wanted to get England rugby team on their CV.
 
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