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England 2023/24

Augustus is really low from memory, but I'm guessing Obano would still have hit high even if Augustus wasn't as low.
 
From memory there was no sudden change in height, which is the significant thing - Augustus was low but he was always low, so the hit was always high
 
For me, Augustus starts low, and goes lower - but it's not sudden or unpredictable - Ref had it bang on, it was bracing for impact.
Beno does get low, but not low enough, and he pushes up from his low position.

For me, guilty as charged, both live and in retrospect.
 
For me, Augustus starts low, and goes lower - but it's not sudden or unpredictable - Ref had it bang on, it was bracing for impact.
Beno does get low, but not low enough, and he pushes up from his low position.

For me, guilty as charged, both live and in retrospect.
You're right, the referee did get it spot on. However, I would really like to see an emphasis in regulations on a defender's responsibility in tackle scenarios. There is no change in height from Augustus, which is generally referred to as the only mitigation in cases like these, but look at his body position. If Obano aims for his chest, he gets a shoulder or an elbow to the head. If he aims for Augustus' midriff, he gets a knee to the head because of the way Augustus is going into contact. Both players made that a dangerous tackle.
 
You're right, the referee did get it spot on. However, I would really like to see an emphasis in regulations on a defender's responsibility in tackle scenarios. There is no change in height from Augustus, which is generally referred to as the only mitigation in cases like these, but look at his body position. If Obano aims for his chest, he gets a shoulder or an elbow to the head. If he aims for Augustus' midriff, he gets a knee to the head because of the way Augustus is going into contact. Both players made that a dangerous tackle.

You're not worng, but you can't make it the responsibility of both players in a contact sport.

We're already at the situation where it's technically impossible to clear a ruck if the first player there bends at the knees and sticks their head forward.

Can't make head contact, can't roll them sideways, can't go off your feetto get underneath them.

In Obano's case, Augustus was assuming a strong position into the contact (head down, knees bent lean forward and if Obano is going to hit him, he more or less has to go so low that he's off his feet (which is obviously legal in a tackle). He didn't do this, so was always in danger of head contact.

We don't want brain damage in rugby, but I do have a degree of sympathy with players making the tackle; when you have a fraction of a second to make a decision and take an action which your opponent is trying to avoid, there are always going to be red cards. A few may be deliberately dirty, but most are unlucky. I'm not sure that total behavioural change will ever happen.
 
You're right, the referee did get it spot on. However, I would really like to see an emphasis in regulations on a defender's responsibility in tackle scenarios. There is no change in height from Augustus, which is generally referred to as the only mitigation in cases like these, but look at his body position. If Obano aims for his chest, he gets a shoulder or an elbow to the head. If he aims for Augustus' midriff, he gets a knee to the head because of the way Augustus is going into contact. Both players made that a dangerous tackle.
A] I agree, I'd like to see the ball carrier have a little more responsibility - but for me, that's more for pick & go rather than hitting a tackle with a run up and bracing to avoid broken ribs.
B] There really is a change of height, it's just that it's utterly predictable, and should have been predicted.
C] Absolutely, Obano didn't give himself enough room for error, made the error, and ended up hitting Augustus in the head.
 
I think if Obano had stayed low throughout he might have had a case, but he clearly went up in the tackle. He could have been lower as he started lower.
 
For me Obano starts off lower and drives upwards as he makes the hit just as much as Augustus dips.
Even on a upright runner that hit would've been more towards borderline.

It's the problem with this emphasis on dominant hits, more emphasis on the tackler dominating the runner.

I also struggle to see what Augustus could've done differently his knees wasn't unnaturally high.
 
but you can't make it the responsibility of both players in a contact sport.
Yes you can. It should be the ball carrier's responsibility to maintain a fairly upright position and allow the tackler an opportunity to make a legal tackle. It should be the tackler's responsibility to tackle in a safe, legal manner which will not endanger themselves or the ball carrier.

but for me, that's more for pick & go rather than hitting a tackle with a run up and bracing to avoid broken ribs
I would have thought it should be the other way around. I'd imagine that more of these dangerous tackles and red-card scenarios occur in broken field running rather than tight pick and go scenarios, which means you need tighter policing of both players' actions.

I think if Obano had stayed low throughout he might have had a case, but he clearly went up in the tackle. He could have been lower as he started lower.
I agree, which is one of the reasons the referee got it spot on and I'm not disputing the red card. If Obano hadn't gone upwards in the tackle and through Augustus' head, I would have had more sympathy. He does start fairly low- he's not in an awful body position as he is bent at the hips and the distance Augustus is leaning forwards means the point of contact is far lower than if would have been if he was upright.

I also struggle to see what Augustus could've done differently his knees wasn't unnaturally high.
Go into contact more upright. He's nearly at a 45 degree angle which gives Obano a much lower and much smaller window to make a legal tackle without concussing himself in the process.
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A] I agree, I'd like to see the ball carrier have a little more responsibility - but for me, that's more for pick & go rather than hitting a tackle with a run up and bracing to avoid broken ribs.
B] There really is a change of height, it's just that it's utterly predictable, and should have been predicted.
C] Absolutely, Obano didn't give himself enough room for error, made the error, and ended up hitting Augustus in the head.
I disagree that a ball carrier needs to have any more responsibility other than something clearly dangerous (leading with the leg or forearm) but I do think mitigation needs to extend to the tackler or clearing out plaster making every reasonable attempt to tackle or clear out legally. If the recipient puts themselves in a position where that becomes impossible, I think that should be strong mitigation.
 
It just all adds up for the need for an orange card or whatever.

The last Premiership, Heineken and World Cup finals have all had reds. Not arguing about any under current rules and interpretation, but is that really what we want for non gratuitous or premeditated actions?
 
It just all adds up for the need for an orange card or whatever.

The last Premiership, Heineken and World Cup finals have all had reds. Not arguing about any under current rules and interpretation, but is that really what we want for non gratuitous or premeditated actions?
One of the many pods i listen to suggesting World Rugby is going one of two ways. Either orange cards or below the sternum as per community game.

One concern being orange cards can be gamed by teams.
 
We don't need orange cards, let's stop trying to make this complex game even more complex needlessly.

Just make head contact like that a yellow card as it should be.
 
We don't need orange cards, let's stop trying to make this complex game even more complex needlessly.

Just make head contact like that a yellow card as it should be.
And then WRU and the other unions are definitely open to being sued for negligence as it could be argued they didn't do enough to protect players. Honestly, as long as that's hanging over them they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Make the game riskier and more entertaining opens you up to lawsuits. Make the game safer, more complex and boring and lose fans and revenue.
 
Yes you can. It should be the ball carrier's responsibility to maintain a fairly upright position and allow the tackler an opportunity to make a legal tackle. It should be the tackler's responsibility to tackle in a safe, legal manner which will not endanger themselves or the ball carrier.


I would have thought it should be the other way around. I'd imagine that more of these dangerous tackles and red-card scenarios occur in broken field running rather than tight pick and go scenarios, which means you need tighter policing of both players' actions.


I agree, which is one of the reasons the referee got it spot on and I'm not disputing the red card. If Obano hadn't gone upwards in the tackle and through Augustus' head, I would have had more sympathy. He does start fairly low- he's not in an awful body position as he is bent at the hips and the distance Augustus is leaning forwards means the point of contact is far lower than if would have been if he was upright.


Go into contact more upright. He's nearly at a 45 degree angle which gives Obano a much lower and much smaller window to make a legal tackle without concussing himself in the process.
View attachment 20460

Dude can still be tackle on the legs....
Players need to pick and choose when to put a crunching tackle.

You are literally told to attack the legs as a kid.
 
Yes you can. It should be the ball carrier's responsibility to maintain a fairly upright position and allow the tackler an opportunity to make a legal tackle. It should be the tackler's responsibility to tackle in a safe, legal manner which will not endanger themselves or the ball carrier.


Go into contact more upright. He's nearly at a 45 degree angle which gives Obano a much lower and much smaller window to make a legal tackle without concussing himself in the process.
View attachment 20460

I'd like to wish you much luck in codifying "It should be the ball carrier's responsibility to maintain a fairly upright position" into the laws of the game. Obviously, a game where you have to give your opponent a reasonable chance to stop you would soon die out due to lack of interest... and I'm struggling to think of any sport which has such a rule.

You'd also need to refer every contact to the TMO, who would have to be armed with a protractor. :)
 

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