England EPS 2016/17 season.

[Vieux Talonneur]

After looking at some weight stats you're right that Genge-Hill would only actually be 1kg lighter than Ayerza-Cole. But I mean more their styles of open play. Both Ayerza and Cole are both what I'd consider to be very "strong" carriers, not gonna go in with much speed or power but will grind metres with their strength. Genge is seriously powerful but not what I'd consider to be exceptionally strong and Hill just isn't much of a carrier at all. When both of your props lack that ability to really grind metres in the tight areas I think you're gonna really lack a solid attacking platform. Plus Hill just isn't that strong in the scrum and although Genge has improved lots in the scrum Argentina showed that without a strong scrummager on the other side he can struggle.

Agreed, just don't see it with Hill. Got capped prematurely due to injury. But that he's fallen behind Brookes says a lot. Actually I'd like him to stay and fight for his place, rather than run because it's not going his way.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Would be surprised if Cole has made more than 50m in his entire pro career.

Which is about 49m more than Jason Leonard.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm not questioning Cole as a prop just as a ball carrier.

Agreed, just don't see it with Hill. Got capped prematurely due to injury. But that he's fallen behind Brookes says a lot. Actually I'd like him to stay and fight for his place, rather than run because it's not going his way.

They is a difference between running because you are not getting your own way and moving to get more game time to improve though.

As a international prop he has gone from playing in the prem.
661 minutes last season in 17 games (38.8 mins per game) with 5 starts.
to this season.
424 minutes in 18 games (23.5 minutes per game) with only 1 start. In fact he only played for more than 25 mins for 4 games.

For no obvious reason, it isn't like Brookes has been top class either. I could understand if he was green but he has played international rugby in fact he was on tour with england to aus last season.


Will be interesting to see how Ford-Robinson fits in with this setup.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Hill, is very, very good.

Lots of people (most people) on here thought Sinckler was overhyped and on a route to nowhere at the same age.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not saying Hill's a bad player, just that I haven't seen anything to suggest he'll be top class. He's young for a prop, so will hopefully improve. But if he was that good you'd have thought he'd have worked his way past an off colour Brookes, regardless of anything else. BTW I think we all forget how well Brookes was going before injury.

Sinckler's different. He's always had stand out attributes in his loose play and aggresion. Question has always been whether these outweigh his scrummaging and volatility. Jury's still out on that one. For all his recent achievements he's still not started a test yet. 24's not exactly old, but it's an age by which many players have nailed down a test spot.

As with so many positions EJ has an interesting call at TH.

 

[BPM]

Scored 3 tries for England since Jones took over iirc?

Must be doing something right. You don't see him get turned over like Genge does either.

Try scoring doesn't necessarily indicate a good carrier. I can recall all three of Cole's recent efforts - one in the third test against Australia where he strolled over unopposed from a metre or so out, one against France which was maybe 2m out (and benefitted from Mako's possibly illegal support) and one which was a flop over the line at the back of a rolling maul against Italy.

They all count, but none of those are good examples of Cole having a carrying game. He doesn't normally get turned over because he only moves about a metre forward, so support is there straight away. By comparison, Genge can get turned over becasue he can get carried away and isolate himself from his support. Sometimes it's better to go a 4m and keep the ball than to go 5m and lose it.

Don't get me wrong - I like Cole, but let's not pretend he's a good carrier ...

 

[ratsapprentice]

24's not exactly old, but it's an age by which many players have nailed down a test spot.

Not many at TH.

Yes TH's have become younger, but they still "mature" several years slower than all other positions.

Hill is outstanding, mark my words.

 

[BPM]

Not many at TH.

Yes TH's have become younger, but they still "mature" several years slower than all other positions.

Hill is outstanding, mark my words.

I'm inclined to agree on the bolded part. I'd also say it entirely depends on who is in front of them. Dan Cole is a tighthead who established himself earlier than the norm and has deservedly kept the shirt (when fit) which has limited opportunities for those behind him in the pecking order.

The jury is still out on Hill for me, but he clearly has a lot more potential than he showed last season.

 

[BPM]

[QUOTE="Tigs Man]Will be interesting to see how Ford-Robinson fits in with this setup.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think of Ford-Robinson as being more mobile and a better carrier than Brookes or Hill but not as good a scrummager.

That would suggest he's more of an impact sub coming off the bench for either of the other two. Then again, he could well leapfrog both,

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not many at TH.

Yes TH's have become younger, but they still "mature" several years slower than all other positions.

Hill is outstanding, mark my words.

Generally take the point but the last two we've had who really nailed down the shirt - Cole and Vickery - were regulars before turning 23.

Really hope you're right on Hill, but time will tell.