England EPS 2016/17 season.

[MarkyH]

My squad for Argentina has a very Saxons feel to it, but with the odd experience head still in the squad. Left some proven Prem players out who haven't shone internationally yet (like Hughes) and included players with potential (Mercer) that have chance to shine against tough opposition

1. Mullan, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinckler, Brookes,
4. Ewels
5. Attwood, Lawes
6. Robshaw, Jones
7. Underhill, Kvesic
8. Clifford, Mercer
9. Robson, Spencer
10. Lozowski, Burns
11. May
12. Slade, Mallinder
13. Marchant, Tompkins
14. Wade, Earle
15. Haley (struggling here, if Watson or Nowell don't go Lions I'll gladly take on tour)

Plenty of chance for younger players in positions we need improvement in to stake a claim for game time pre 2019...

 

[BPM]

Decent squad, but why bother with Mullan? We know he's a capable enough reserve at test level, but I think it's debatable whether he'll still be in the mix in 2019. Mako and Marler are only 26 and when there are younger players with a higher ceiling such as Genge or Rapava-Ruskin, Mullan is a bit of a wasted pick IMO.

I picked Attwood in my squad too, but I sort of feel the same about him. I picked him on the assumption that Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury may all be with the Lions and we'd need a bit more experience for Argentina. If that's not the case, I'd go with Barrow. He offers similar qualities but is a fair bit younger and could be worth developing as a long term successor to Kruis.

 

[MarkyH]

Decent squad, but why bother with Mullan? We know he's a capable enough reserve at test level, but I think it's debatable whether he'll still be in the mix in 2019. Mako and Marler are only 26 and when there are younger players with a higher ceiling such as Genge or Rapava-Ruskin, Mullan is a bit of a wasted pick IMO.

I picked Attwood in my squad too, but I sort of feel the same about him. I picked him on the assumption that Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury may all be with the Lions and we'd need a bit more experience for Argentina. If that's not the case, I'd go with Barrow. He offers similar qualities but is a fair bit younger and could be worth developing as a long term successor to Kruis.

Good points.

Attwood for the reasons you suggest, we do need to take players that have caps. Haven't seen Barrow but was obv part of an U20 JWC winning team. Also, just checking his stats, he's a bit of a beast.

I guess players like Mullan, and Catt at Bath are probably to late to improve much further and are probably at the peak of their game now. However I'd still take some experience (in a domestic, amount of games played sense) front row players to Argentina with players like Genge/Hill in case we need that. I'd definitely be giving more game time to the younger players though.

Could you tell me more about Val Rapava Ruskin? Georgian born but grew up in England from the age of 2? So no qualification rules to worry about? Does he have dual nationality or a UK passport? Seen a bit of him on Prem highlights but haven't seen much more..

 

[BPM]

Rapava-Ruskin's time in Toulon meant that he had to re-qualify on residency AFAIK?

He's a loose head who has a really strong all round game. Very solid in the set-piece, good over the ball and a good carrying game. I really rate him. If Marler and Mako both go with the Lions, I'd take him to Argentina ahead of Mullan or Catt.

 

[BPM]

As a wider point I think we need to take stock of where we are post-6N (regardless of the next two results) and then look at what the plan is to build-up for the World Cup.

Eddie has more or less said this is his plan, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays-out in the squad selections.

IMO, now is the time to start thinking about how we address our main selection issues and also who will and won't be likely to make it to Japan.

The Lions tour will force us to look at some different selections anyway, so we may as well use it to start identifying and bringing through our next group of test players.

As harsh as it sounds, anyone who is over 30 and not a first choice player probably needs to be cycled-out in favour of a younger alternative who can put more pressure on the match day 23.

For example, Attwood and Mullan are useful players who we know can perform to a decent level in a test-match setting but neither has forced their way in to the reckoning to be first or second choice. I don't really see the point of giving them another 10 caps when we could investing in players who might be able to force their way in to the starting XV or 23. Someone like Genge has the potential to do that by 2019 so I think there is more value in building his experience than adding to Mullan's. I'd argue it's even more of a waste to keep giving caps to Danny Care when we've got Robson knocking on the door. Care has 50 or so caps so it's not as though we're going to learn anything new about him now.

Obviously it's more complicated with current first choice players like Hartley or Brown, but if we feel they're declining now, I can't see that situation improving across the next two years.

 

[ALJ]

I dunno so much about that - forwards (particularly the front five) tend to be at their peak in their early to mid thirties.

If we're building specifically for Japan, anyone aged 32 or under should be considered imho.

 

[BPM]

I dunno so much about that - forwards (particularly the front five) tend to be at their peak in their early to mid thirties.

If we're building specifically for Japan, anyone aged 32 or under should be considered imho.

If they're a first or second choice now, then I agree. Not so much anyone who's 30+ and not really established themselves at test level.

I'm not talking about Cole for example. A tighthead of his experience is a rare commodity, but Mullan over Genge is questionable for me.

 

[MarkyH]

Great points and I'm agreeing with BPM a lot here. Mullan, Catt and the like are at their peak but that peak isn't good enough to be a regular test player. Players like Genge, Hill and this Ruskin chap obv have potential and are playing to a decent Prem standard. Their ability ceiling is potentially higher than the current ability of Mullan etc. The only way for them to improve and become test match players in the lead up to WC2019 is for game time in a test match environment.

A tour to Argentina is bloody hard, and will do wonders for them. I might still take Mullan and Catt, but only for an experienced prop to be in the training squad.

England, despite our recent success, have a few positions where they really need to identify the next player in that position. The back row, scrum half, full back are quite pressing right now. Maybe IC. We've won a couple of JWCs recently, and quite a few are getting game time in the prem, even if not a regular. Lets bring them in now, it will only improve them. Then we can build to 2019...

 

[ALJ]

If they're a first or second choice now, then I agree. Not so much anyone who's 30+ and not really established themselves at test level.

I'm not talking about Cole for example. A tighthead of his experience is a rare commodity, but Mullan over Genge is questionable for me.

I can see your point but if someone puts their hand up by playing consistently well, I don't think it sends the right message to say they'll be overlooked because they're too old.

I think Cole is only 29 but I take your point.
As with Genge over Mullan but then there doesn't seem to be much to choose between them so logic says the younger man wins out as he has more potential.

 

[Peat]

In my mind it's both Vunipolas, Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, either Launch or Kruis, Youngs, Faz and JJ that are certain to tour with Marler, Sinckler, the other of Launch and Kruis, Robshaw, Daly, Nowell and Watson all likely, as well as possibly Haskell and Ford as possible contenders.

Can't see Robshaw making it when injured, can see Lawes sneaking in (we're not sending all 4 though), Daly for JJ feels likely, don't think Hask is making it with the number of 7s playing this tournament.

I've got a half-feeling Te'o might go. Gatland likes a bruising centre and the cupboard is pretty bare there right now.

 

[BPM]

This squad will still be the backbone of our World Cup squad and we need to do everything we can to win our next two games as a second grand slam and a world record would be massive for this team.

Beyond that, I could accept a defeat or two in Argentina or the AIs if it meant blooding players that we need to keep moving forward.

Eddie's already said he'll rest any of our Lions so the rest of 2017 is a really good opportunity for the fringe players to step up.

 

[barkinghooker]

How many England players are likely to go on the Lions tour in 84 days?

George, Marler,Mako, Itoje, Launch, Billy, Hughes? ,Farrell, Joseph, Nowell?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Hughes is no where near the lions lol.

Guessing for me likely ones
Marler, Vunipola
Hartley
Cole (been average this 6N's but is experianced and not many other options TBH outside Furlong and Nel)
Lawes
Itoje
Launchbury
Haskell
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Joesph
Nowell

Maybes
George
Kruis
Daly
Watson

 

[Goodey]

How many England players are likely to go on the Lions tour in 84 days?

George, Marler,Mako, Itoje, Launch, Billy, Hughes? ,Farrell, Joseph, Nowell?

Mako should go. Marler vs McGrath is probably a 50/50 call, unlikely to be both.

Itoje and Launchbury are in afaic. I thought Kruis would get in ahead of Launchbury on club form towards the end of the season but has a bit of an uphill battle now. Could be an interesting matchup in the likely Wasps-Sarries Premiership final.

Hughes no, because of the back row competition. Vunipola will be first choice, CJ Stander will go and will cover no.8 from the field and one of Moriarty and Faletau will be the backup 8. Haskell more likely (as a like for like backup to Stander) but I've no idea what kind of back row balance Gatland will shoot for. It's probably going to be based around Warburton again given current form.

I expect one of Youngs and Care will be the 3rd scrum half.

Farrell and Joseph should go. Ford has a chance. Farrell counts as a 10 and 12 so there is room to pick all three alongside Henshaw, Davies, Sexton who are the only guys bound to be on the plane as well.

Nowell probably not. I think Daly will go ahead of him. Watson probably hasn't played enough internationals this season and will miss out.

So to answer your question I expect 8-9 England players in an initial squad of 34-ish. When more players start being called up as 'cover' (actually just players for the midweek team) quite a most of those will be English as we generally have stronger backups and fringe players than the other 3 sides. I remember Wade, Barritt and Twelvetrees getting called up last time.

 

[Reiser99]

I still think picking the Lions tour is up in the air. If you go on yesterdays performance then England should be well represented. However up until Scotland, whilst winning, overall England players collectively have been poor. If we have another good match against Ireland then I feel it would be more justified, but at the moment no team has played consistently well, especially England.

 

[Goodey]

Yeah I think the club form in the playoffs and ECC knockouts is going to be important for that reason. More than England/Ireland players it might be more helpful to think of us as represented by Wasps, Saracens, Munster and Leinster players.

 

[barkinghooker]

I did use "?" on Hughes as a maybe. Gats may want to try an
8 out wide. He's no Billy but probably would be seen as a better player being deployed similarly to the "Read role"

I would of gone with Laidlaw as 3rd choice SH as it's another kicker/captain in the team (or is he out for rest/most of the season?)

I wasn't expecting the lions to be littered with England players but more interested in who we pick in their place for Argentina

I think we are all generally on the same page who will go to NZ.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Forwards (17)
Marler, Vunipola, Hartley, George, Taylor, Cole, Sinckler, Hill, Launchbury, Beaumont, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Wood, Harrison, Hughes, Vunipola

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Ford, Lozowski, Farrell, Te'o, Slade, Joseph, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Yarde, May, Brown

Surprised/disappointed that Clifford hasn't been called back. Injured?

 

[Goodey]

Fell out with Eddie's dog IMO.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Can Hill play both sides?

Agreed re Clifford, when Harrison (and Wood, but didn't see him being dropped) is still about