England Post-WC discussion

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by TRF_Peat, Aug 21, 2015.

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  1. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    Tony Commands, I Obey.

    I do think this is a sufficiently interesting topic of conversation to warrant its own thread though. There's a fair amount of dissatisfaction with the team and some of the players within, and also a lot of promising youngsters pushing hard for selection. I'm going to laugh long and loud at anyone who believes we'll replace the chaff with gold and become the best team in the world, that's not how English rugby works and doubtless we'll waste yet more potential, but we are in about as promising a position as we've had for some time - not least because huge amounts of the players involved now look like potentially being really strong players come the next World Cup. As already documented variously, virtually everyone involved *could* be at the next World Cup. Some of them are long odds, but I feel like only Nick Easter and Richard Wigglesworth definitely won't be going.

    Personally my gut instinct is that next year's 6N squad will look a lot like this WC squad barring a very unlikely defenestration of Lancaster - these are who he perceives as his best players and he'll want to make use of all the times he's spending with them. I am in general ok with this; one of the big advantages of having such a settled squad for the next four years is that dropping in young players should get easier, we don't need guys in place for the full four year cycle as there'll be plenty of experience and cohesion whatever. We can very easily ask Parling, for example, to do two years more to try and build some winning momentum then replace him with whoever. Needless to say though, there are some individual cases where a change is needed and you just hope against hope the prospect of a new WC cycle will get Lancaster to change his mind (hint: he won't).

    Anyway, here follows a breakdown of the current squad and fringe players, with the guys pushing for inclusion next season and long term - only going as young as U20, as that's as far as my knowledge goes, but I'd point out there's a very highly rated U18 squad currently prodding buttock out in South Africa and it wouldn't be too surprising to see some guys from there involved come the next World Cup.

    LHP - Marler (25), Vunipola (24), Corbisiero (26)
    Contending: Mullan (28), Waller (25)
    Long term: Harrison (22), Genge (20), Auterac (22)

    Very healthy in general, despite Corbs' fragility, which also poses an interesting question as that *may* open up an opportunity for someone else to grab the third loosehead spot. Mullan would seem the current candidate of choice and will be in his propping prime come the next World Cup, but good seasons for Waller or Harrison could see them leapfrog him. Genge a longer term project at this stage. I only remembered Auterac's name halfway through writing and realised I'd be roasted if I forgot him.

    Hooker - Youngs (28), Webber (29), George (24), Cowan-Dickie (22)
    Contending: Hartley (29)
    Long term: Taylor (23), Walker (19), Haywood (23)

    Possible big churn here. Hartley would walk right back into the squad tomorrow as things stand - it is my dearest wish to see that changed and he must be testing Lancaster's patience, even if he clearly rates him. Webber probably can't survive another period of bad domestic form, although I wouldn't assume he'll have one. Jamie George is posed to be a huge winner from this World Cup (in every possible sense the tubby so-and-so) but Cowan-Dickie could easily be overtaken by Taylor. Haywood's a bit of a long shot but has so much talent and could win big if Hartley decides to walk shortly post-WC; Walker is clearly massively rated for the future.

    THP - Cole (28), Wilson (30), Brookes (24)
    Contending: Thomas (23)
    Long term: Cooper-Woolley (25), Hill (20), Sinckler (22)

    One's always got the feeling that Wilson is not quite rated by the England management and Brookes is allegedly on the verge of overtaking him; I wouldn't be completely surprised to see Wilson miss out on this World Cup even. In that case, Henry Thomas will surely replace him next 6N, and can't be far off in any case. Cooper-Woolley seems quite a distance off but has talent and size, not sure whether he's athletic enough. Paul Hill has the most auspicious surname in England rugby and looks a big talent, might be involved sooner than we think with his Saints move. Sinckler is an incredible athlete and will be in contention if he can master his scrummaging and discipline. I feel increasingly pessimistic on England but I feel we're in with a very strong shout of having the best front row in the World come next WC, if we aren't now.

    Lock - Launchbury (24), Lawes (26), Parling (31), Attwood (28), Kruis (25)
    Contending: Itoje (20), Slater (27), Kitchener (25), Beaumont (23), Garvey (27), Gaskell (25)
    Long term: Stooke (21), Williams (23), Barrow (22)

    Our cup runneth over. Parling could make it, but given the competition probably won't. Attwood too might find himself a victim long term, another player who doesn't seem that rated. Stooke is the sort of naturally massive man who you hope will make it. I feel like I've missed a player or two here, yet have named tons.

    Flanker - Robshaw (29), Haskell (30), Wood (28), Clark (26)
    Contending: Croft (29), Kvesic (23), Itoje (20), Burgess (26), Ewers (24), Clifford (22), Fearns (26), Fraser (25)
    Long term: Wray (24), Conlon (21), Gibson (24), Jones (23)

    *lights fuse and retires to safe distance*

    8 - Morgan (26), Vunipola (22), Easter (36)
    Contending: Beaumont (23)
    Long term: Hughes (24), Evans (23), Chisholm (20)

    There is no room at the inn yet somehow Nathan Hughes wants a go at it. Go away, you're not English. Not even when stood next to Billy Vunipola. Barring major injury, we're really set, and all the contenders should probably learn other positions. Except for Hughes, who'll be picked by that moral guardian of our game...

    Scum-Half - Youngs (25), Wigglesworth (32), Care (28)
    Contending: Dickson (30), Simpson (27), Chudley (27)
    Long term: Robson (23), Harrison (25), Spencer (23), Townsend (20), Cook (24), Braley (21)

    Possible churn. Wigglesworth is surely done shortly after this, please god, and Dickson too. Care is the interesting one, I have a half-feeling his lack of kicking game might render him vulnerable. Who benefits? Simpson? Long term, there's a list of guys who could make it, although Harrison is only there so I can rage at his lack of ambition, get the f**k out of Tigers and go find the first team berth you're worth, but I'd be hesitant at pointing at a guy and saying "him", particularly when most of them have roadblocks ahead of them in the team. Breaking the U20 thing for a moment, but Maunder out in Exeter is meant to be bloody good.

    Fly-Half - Ford (22), Farrell (23), Cipriani (27)
    Contending: Slade (22), Burns (25), Myler (ancient, lets take him to the glue factory)
    Long term: Lozoskwi (22), Swiel (22), Burns (21), Protheroe (18)

    The long term bit's kinda pointless in the face of the age of the incumbents and main opposition. Is Cips gonna throw a strop? Can Burns rise again? Will Slade make a real push of it in his favoured position? Will England ever learn to hide Ford in defence? Lozoskwi could be a real dark horse actually, seems to have oodles of talent. Protheroe is again breaking my thing about stopping with U20s, but when a club signs a guy straight outta school full pro terms I pay attention. Not really English though by my understanding, but we'll have him anyway, with a poach poach here and a poach poach there.

    Centre - Joseph (24), Barritt (29), Burrell (27), Slade (22), Burgess (26), Twelvetrees (26)
    Contending: You Know Who (24), Daly (23), Eastmond (26)
    Long term: Hill (22), Devoto (21), Lowe (25), Sloan (21), Marchant (19), Stephenson (21), Tompkins (20), Mills (23)
    Weird limbo: Tait (29)

    The perennial spot of dispute. I'll throw this out now as speculation: the amount of punishment Barritt puts his body through is incredible and surely this can't last forever. Tuilagi also has a disturbing injury history. Eastmond is reportedly about to ragequit, two of those players aren't very good and another two have better positions elsewhere; we might be about to see a *huge* turnaround. Not sure I'd bet on it, but the potential is there. It's up to the youth to put pressure on them, the potential is there. Sam Hill's omission in particular is grinding my sodding gears. Marchant I feel has huge future potential. Then there's Tait, who's allegedly about to move back to 13, still possibly has four years in him, and would bring a huge amount of talent and experience, but isn't rated for some weird reason. But maybe that'll change.

    Wing - Nowell (22), May (25), Watson (21)
    Contending: Yarde (23), Ashton (28), Rokoduguni (27), Wade (24), Banahan (28)
    Long term: Lewington (23), too many others to name

    It all looks relatively set, particularly as Lancaster just doesn't like wingers, but Ashton looked set four years ago and now look at him. Arguably the hardest position to gauge. The news that Lancaster was talking to Banahan fills me with fear and loathing. Alex Lewington gets a mention because he scored a bucketful of tries for LI, never the easiest, and hit the squad for the Baabaas.

    Full back - Brown (29), Goode (27)
    Contending: Watson (21), Foden (30), Pennell (28), Tait (29)
    Long term: Miller (26), Haley (21), Bell (22), Hammersley (22)

    We are either looking at a very old full-back in 2019, or a very unknown one, or Anthony Watson, so no sodding pressure here Anthony. I have a half-feeling it will be Pennell actually, I hope so, that would be a fairytale story. Tait and Foden are probably out of contention but are named for completeness' sake, Miller a bit of a long shot... ok, I named them so we could laugh at Olyy over just how many Sale ex-boys I named. Possibly a few other names I could have named in the long term section but back three players are the hardest to gauge to my mind. Maybe I shoulda said Nowell but I get the feeling the powers that be don't see him there (but coulda named him at centre maybe...)


    Anyway, have at it. Tell me what's going to happen as I clearly don't know.
     
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  3. goodNumber10

    goodNumber10 Senior Member

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    Slade into squad as a 12, Cook as a 9.

    Burgess to play in two world cups but in different positions.

    Andy Farrell to move on, Owen to move to France (think he listens to his dad a bit too much), Rowntree to leave, Catt to stay.

    Robshaw to still be captain.

    Stick a fork in me, I'm done.....
     
  4. TheSaffycen

    TheSaffycen Senior Member

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    On the Saracens guys
    Earle if he gets over his injury problems, Biyi Alo is a massive (in all meanings) young tighthead. 6ft2 and 118kg at only 21. Tompkins at centre, is he good enough ? Maybe but it is difficult for him to get in against Hill and co. Ransom I rate but that might be Sarries bias.
     
  5. goodNumber10

    goodNumber10 Senior Member

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    Oh of course, Itoje to be the best 6 on the world...
     
  6. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Senior Member

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    Alo was ****house in the U20's.
     
  7. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Out of interest: why do you think Rowntree will be off?
    Seeking pastures new(/pension top up at somewhere like Toulon, like Strigeon?)?
    I can't imagine England chucking him, he's excellent.


    I'm interested to see if they try and bring Alex King in in the near future
     
  8. Tmartin995

    Tmartin995 Senior Member

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    Pretty comprehensive list, wouldn't be surprised to see some late bloomers come through and pressure the squad. For example, it took Jack Nowell starting multiple games for Exeter's first team for him to be noticed by the U20s set up, iirc.

    Also a small point, Townsend is only 19, not 20, and has another year as an U20 player. Pretty promising considering he was ones England's standout players before his injury. I'd tip him to get some meaningful first team games this season.
     
  9. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Would put Balmain up as a long term @ Tighthead he will be having a much bigger role at Leicester with Cole and is considered ahead of Rizzo as our 4th choice prop.

    Harrison well TBH he could be a starter a few clubs, but he is born and breed Leicester has gotten over his injuries. And there is a rumour Youngs is leaving end of next season to either Bath or France which might have been presented to Harrison who will if that happen be straight in as first choice 9.

    Also another tiger who could be a long shot is Pearce @6/8 guy is a prospect.

    IF the World Cup isn't a huge success I.e. We fail to make finals.

    Would replace the current squad:
    Mullan for Corbs
    Heywood for Webber
    Thomas for Wilson
    Slater for Attwood
    Kitchener for Parling
    Itojie for Easter
    Ewers for Wood
    Kvesic for Clark
    Simpson for Wigglesworth
    Daly for Burrell
    Manu for 36
    Yarde for Ashton
    Pennell for Goode

    A lot of changes but I feel that some of the older depth players I.e. Parling, Easter etc should be replaced with younger players who have shown form at AP level to justify it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  10. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    Apparently New Zealand were looking at Tom Marshall last season. He's also qualified for England, has talked about wanting to play for England, and is joining Gloucester for next season. He can play anywhere 11-15. Injured for a while at the start of the season though. Still, it would surprise me if England didn't have a look at him before the next Six Nations.

    Centres: I don't think this will be a problem position for much longer to be honest. Burgess is looking better all the time. Tuilagi is to come back. Barritt is decent, Joseph is good. Nowell is picking up time at 13 for Exe. Hill is getting older. Marshall is joining Glos. Slade is finally being given a go.

    Also, I hope that Bath follow England's lead in picking Burgess at centre. Flanker is already a crowded field.
     
  11. living sacrifice

    living sacrifice Senior Member

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    I want to see a blend of youth and experience after the World Cup, what I want what I really really want is

    Marler
    Youngs - an old head
    Cole
    Lauchbeery
    Laws
    Burgess captain!
    Kvesic
    Morgan/binny
    Youngs/Simpson/Robison
    Ford
    Nowell/may
    Slade
    JJ (manu if he deserves it which he won't)
    Watson
    15 is the position I expect a new player to come and take! May be use Watson there but we will see

    16 George or Luke CD
    17 vuinipola
    18 brooks
    19 Kitchener
    20 Haskell or wood or robshaw or heads
    21 one of the 9s above
    22 Farrell
    23 daly or someone like that
     
  12. ncurd

    ncurd Senior Member

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    The major change will be whether Lancaster stays or not. If England don't make the semi's or heaven forbid out of the group I don't see his tenure lasting much longer. At most it he'll be given another 6 nations but I think it's high time he won it in that situation.

    Major difference will be perceived favourite's we'll likely see Farrell and Catt go hopefully Rowntree stay. After that I doubt we'll persist with Robshaw at 7 and bring in a youngster there, more importantly the back division will likely be shook up a little with a clear nail flag to the mast choice at 10 unless there is a real bolter and some semblance of stability at center and wing.
     
  13. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    If Lancaster were to be dropped the day after the RWC, who would be next in line?
    I'd like to keep the coach English, as far as possible.

    God, I bet they'd bring in Callard as an interim. Just consider that when you're calling for Lancaster's head!
     
  14. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    Baxter pls. Baxter was even called up to sort out the England forwards back during the Lions.

    Though I have an unsettling feeling that it could be Andy Farrell. :(
     
  15. goodNumber10

    goodNumber10 Senior Member

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    reckon he could get poached, also think he's been there a while, might move onto coaching a full team - coahces have to keep developing as much as players, so he might want more of a challenge.

    Farrell it strikes me will go where the money is best, he's done his patriotic bit, and h's been good for england (no arguments please) think he may want to move on if we have a good world Cup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    i don't think tht will happen, look at Woodward in 1999, i think as long as results remain steady/consistent then eh'll stay.... a lot of it will depend on how we play. if we go out pool stages are two titanic test matches he's likely to be given a chance.
     
  16. Every Time Ref

    Every Time Ref Senior Member

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    Please God, not Farrell.

    Baxter could be good though. Has shown his credentials coaching Exeter, and knowing Slade, Ewers, Hill, Nowell and Cowan-Dickie's games inside out and how to get the best out of them could be very useful for England over the next 4 years.

    ****, it's going to be Farrell isn't it.
     
  17. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Baxter and King Dream Team™
     
  18. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    I feel like the three lead candidates should Lancaster go shortly - and I think it would take an absolute omnishambles for him not to get a 6N or two to rescue the situation - would be Farrell, Baxter and Mallinder.

    I personally cannot see the point of Farrell if you don't like what Lancaster's doing - they're too closely linked in my mind - but there's no accounting for the RFU. Baxter is the exciting choice but I'd like to see him get a little more seasoning. Mallinder has the domestic trophies and the RFU record but I'm not sure he's what he wants.

    Really, the most inspiring choice out there to me is Dean Richards, but can you imagine the RFU appointing him?

    Personally I think short of outstanding success or failure at the World Cup, Lancaster has until 2017 to win some trophies and collect some more SH scalps.
     
  19. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Not Mallinder!
     
  20. j'nuh

    j'nuh Senior Member

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    Don't want a cheater to coach the national team.
     
  21. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Reunite the Diamond Mallinder Dream Team娪
    Team Malliand娪
    The Diaminder Duo娪
     
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