England scrum half rankings

[AngloScotsHybrid]

As Ben Youngs has announced his retirement I thought we could do a ranking of the best English scrum halves of the last 40 years. I will start with the following but am happy to listen to arguments to change it:
1. K. Bracken
2. M. Dawson
3. D. Care
4. B. Youngs
5. D. Morris
6. A. Mitchell
7. H. Ellis
8. R. Hill
9. A. Gommersall
10. A. Healey

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Before anyone criticises my Austin Healey decision Im going to leave this here:

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Bracken is disqualified for appearing in Dancing On Ice.

But surely Dawson has to be top of the list? One of the boys of 03 and 3 BIL tours including that try.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Bracken also played in 2003. He started the crucial world cup group game against south africa.
Also Bracken had a better pass than Dawson.

 

[BPM]

He did. However, it depends on how you're determining your ranking. If we're judging it on ability, maybe Bracken shades it but Dawson had the more successful England career.

By the same logic, Youngs would be ahead of Care. Arguably Gomersall and Healey too (on RWC achievements).

 

[LIONSxv]

Some very good players on that list. But arguably only Dawson or Bracken fall into the world class category. I've always thought that England fail to produce elite scrum halves...which I find odd given the talent we've had at 10 over the same period
I'd take take Dawson over Bracken purely based on his role at 03.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Youngs, on his day, was absolutely world class

Don't let the latter years cloud the earlier - absurd to have Care above him as well, imo
Realistically he's top 3 with Dawson and Bracken, I'm not fussed which order you put them in

 

[McTallshort]

Bracken above Dawson? Never

 

[LIONSxv]

Youngs, on his day, was absolutely world class

Don't let the latter years cloud the earlier - absurd to have Care above him as well, imo
Realistically he's top 3 with Dawson and Bracken, I'm not fussed which order you put them in

Young's was up and down with his form even early days. He was a super running threat but not sure enough components of his game all worked well enough at the same time to be treated as WC
Also his best era coincided with early Aaron Smith and peak Will Genia who were the two World Class operators at the time

 

[Which Tyler]

Bracken above Dawson? Never

Bracken was the better scrum half, Dawson the better rugby player.
Healey worse again as a scrum half, but better again as a rugby player.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

He did. However, it depends on how you're determining your ranking. If we're judging it on ability, maybe Bracken shades it but Dawson had the more successful England career.

By the same logic, Youngs would be ahead of Care. Arguably Gomersall and Healey too (on RWC achievements).

My list is about how good a scrum half they were, not how many trophies/matches they won.

 

[BPM]

Bracken was the better scrum half, Dawson the better rugby player.
Healey worse again as a scrum half, but better again as a rugby player.

Yeah. This is more or less what I was about to say in response to @AngloScotsHybrid's last post.

Funny to think what might have happened had Harry Elllis not had to retire so early. I'd have thought quite a few of the earlier caps Youngs and Care got would have been his. Youngs' breakthrough at Tigers probably would have been slower. Also annoying to think about the caps Care missed out on after he was black listed by Eddie. I don't think it would have changed anything at the 2019 RWC though.

 

[Ddanno]

Also annoying to think about the caps Care missed out on after he was black listed by Eddie. I don't think it would have changed anything at the 2019 RWC though.

Especially when those caps were chucked at Ben Spencer and Willie Heinz(!!)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My list is about how good a scrum half they were, not how many trophies/matches they won.

Quite hard to separate the two.

I'd still say Dawson had a bigger impact on matches and he was also an early adopter of the tap and go penalty. Plus opponents found him easier to dislike, a key attribute for any scrum half.

 

[McTallshort]

My list is about how good a scrum half they were, not how many trophies/matches they won.

Think Bracken has read this and agrees with you.

 

[BPM]

Especially when those caps were chucked at Ben Spencer and Willie Heinz(!!)

Agreed. Although to be totally fair, Heinz did a perfectly decent job in the 2019 RWC. I doubt Care would have made any difference in the final either.

 

[Ddanno]

Agreed. Although to be totally fair, Heinz did a perfectly decent job in the 2019 RWC. I doubt Care would have made any difference in the final either.

Aye that is fair, Heinz performed far better than I expected him to when called up; and we'd basically played "our" final the week before

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Aye that is fair, Heinz performed far better than I expected him to when called up; and we'd basically played "our" final the week before

What really annoyed me was that Eddie Jones only took 2 scrum halves to the world cup so that when Heinz got injured, and Youngs was having a shocker in the final, Jones couldn't bring Spencer on because he had just flown halfway round the world, so we had to stick with Youngs who was passing the ball straight into touch.
Taking a 3rd scrum half instead of Ruiridh Mcconnochie, however you spell it, would have made much more sense.

 

[Ddanno]

Yep that was a shocker, negligent even