England to Hold Talks With Gatland

[TRF_Olyy]

>Picking Farrell and Lancaster
>Not picking outsiders

 

[big ginger 8]

>Picking Farrell and Lancaster
>Not picking outsiders

From the system? Didn't say foreigners and just for the head coach position. Neither are outsiders in that way.

 

[FrenchFan]

Other things to consider from a coaching perspective, beyond expectations/starting point and player pool are; the relationship between the top flight leagues and the union (Celts and SH win here), money (France and England), media scrutiny (Celts, Aus, Italy seem kinder/more supportive or less interested) and of course potential for success. With all of those in mind I would rank the desirability of coaching jobs for top tier nations (based on Rugby Champ + 6 Nations participants) in rugby as follows:

1. New Zealand (potentially only 1st for a NZ native)
2. England
3. France
4. Wales
5. Ireland
6. Italy
7. Australia
8. South Africa
9. Scotland
10. Argentina

Thoughts?

I've no idea how the FFR makes your list on the basis of 'desirability'. Les Bleus are an almighty mess. Like the Ireland job it is very much a poisoned chalice (albeit for very different reasons).

Last year when the national selector's job was up for grab nobody wanted it. The leading head coaches (Azéma, Labit/Travers, Galthié, Collazo etc.) all turned it down. They're not interested because they know the politics that come with it. This is why Brunel is just filling in and boy does it show.

Clubs like Clermont and Racing have used the timing of Brunel's appointment to extend their head coaches contract into 2020. Which is a way of saying to Laporte 'hands off'. The union will have to buy them out of their contract if they want them before.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

WTF is "Deep Knowledge" or are you saying that Baxter who has coached 1 team all his career has more "Deep Knowledge" than Gatland?
Eddie Jones doesn't rate Premiership not because he doesn't understand he just doesn't rate the prem because generally it's a not a good ruler for International rugby, the standard is a lot slower.

Deep knowledge about players. Without question Baxter has more knowledge about premiership players than Gatland. Think about how much analysis he has done on all of the other premiership players and teams whilst preparing for Exeter's opponents, all of whom he has played at least twice per year for the best part of a decade.

I also find it astonishing that you think knowledge and experience of the premiership is irrelevant to coaching international rugby. It is the league that every single one of our players competes in! By understanding the league, you have a much better idea of the style of play that all of your players are used to playing, the training and conditioning that players will be getting at clubs, the coaching (and gaps in it) they are receiving...there are a tonne of benefits. It's not a substitute for being an international standard coach, but look at the benefit Schmidt's 3 years at Leinster brought to Ireland when he took the reigns there. Cultural fit and understanding matters.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I've no idea how the FFR makes your list on the basis of 'desirability'. Les Bleus are an almighty mess. Like the Ireland job it is very much a poisoned chalice (albeit for very different reasons).

Last year when the national selector's job was up for grab nobody wanted it. The leading head coaches (Azéma, Labit/Travers, Galthié, Collazo etc.) all turned it down. They're not interested because they know the politics that come with it. This is why Brunel is just filling in and boy does it show.

Clubs like Clermont and Racing have used the timing of Brunel's appointment to extend their head coaches contract into 2020. Which is a way of saying to Laporte 'hands off'. The union will have to buy them out of their contract if they want them before.

My thoughts on France was that they are so bad currently that it can only get better - I could be wrong. I don't know much about the internal politics, beyond the standard conflict between clubs and union.

France also have plenty of cash and pretty strong player base. They also just won the Junior World Cup (meaning talent injection on the way) and are hosting the 2023 World Cup, so rugby will be front and centre, but a coach will be given time to build towards that (you'd hope).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ireland system is way more different, you can't compare the two.

People act like Eddie is a bad coach or something.
Guess what he has a win rate of 80%+ which is way more than any other England head coach with no previous prem experience.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Deep knowledge about players. Without question Baxter has more knowledge about premiership players than Gatland. Think about how much analysis he has done on all of the other premiership players and teams whilst preparing for Exeter's opponents, all of whom he has played at least twice per year for the best part of a decade.

I also find it astonishing that you think knowledge and experience of the premiership is irrelevant to coaching international rugby. It is the league that every single one of our players competes in! By understanding the league, you have a much better idea of the style of play that all of your players are used to playing, the training and conditioning that players will be getting at clubs, the coaching (and gaps in it) they are receiving...there are a tonne of benefits. It's not a substitute for being an international standard coach, but look at the benefit Schmidt's 3 years at Leinster brought to Ireland when he took the reigns there. Cultural fit and understanding matters.

Excuse me for jumping in on someone else's discussion, but the comparison is interesting

I'm no coach at any level, but I feel what you're describing is of limited use for an international coach, compared to international experience. Any English player he has been analysing, he's been analysing as part of a team, and his role within the structure of that team, which doesn't really translate that well to a deep knowledge of what that would mean for England.

On the other hand, Gatland's analysis that he has been doing for years has been on the same opposition that England will be playing and is directly transferable.

I think Schmidt is a poor comparison to be honest, because the Irish domestic setup is completely different

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Excuse me for jumping in on someone else's discussion, but the comparison is interesting

I'm no coach at any level, but I feel what you're describing is of limited use for an international coach, compared to international experience. Any English player he has been analysing, he's been analysing as part of a team, and his role within the structure of that team, which doesn't really translate that well to a deep knowledge of what that would mean for England.

On the other hand, Gatland's analysis that he has been doing for years has been on the same opposition that England will be playing and is directly transferable.

I think Schmidt is a poor comparison to be honest, because the Irish domestic setup is completely different

As I said, I don't think knowledge of a domestic league is the be all and end all, but I think most of the very best coaches have worked domestically in the leagues of the nations they then coach, and benefited from the experience!

Of course there are aspects of international coaching that are distinct from club-level, for example the condensed nature of training games and remote contact with players. There is also the logistical element of "team management" that Woodward excelled at (despite not actually being the most knowledgeable coach by all accounts). I'd be interested in which other areas you think international experience is so vital.

Not to bang the drum too much, but Schmidt never coached internationally before taking over Ireland but he did coach one of their best club sides and, despite the difference in union structure, I don't think it's a poor comparison to McCall or Baxter at all. How did Schmidt manage to be such a successful coach without the international experience you speak of?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Who else is about?
Cockerill .......
No other experienced English coaches

Melville was name checking him at the weekend saying what a great job he'd done at Edinburgh.