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England tour of Argentina

Will argentina have a full strength side?

With how theyve improved over recent years putting a second string team with players who some have which have bearly played in the prem never mind international is that going to be too much for them? And for england losing 16 of our top players to the lions?

Just dont want to get beat then use the excuse of youth and inexperience.
 
I'm going to do my best not to write an essay here, but here are my thoughts:

Props:

On recent form, Genge was an obvious pick. Mullan is slightly lucky to be there, but on the basis that that two of the five props are uncapped and Genge and Hill share all of 6 caps between them, we needed some test experience and Mullan was the most likely candidate.

Selecting Collier and Williams isn't really a huge surprise given Brookes' lack of form and Thomas and Cooper-Woolley's injury hit seasons. I actually like the idea of us developing a strong scrummaging tighthead and I think Collier and Williams will fight it out to start with Hill as a more dynamic 'finisher'. If either or both go well, I could see them usurping Hill in the EPS once we can pick a full squad again.

Unlucky: The two Worcester props. Rapava-Ruskin must have been close, but I can understand why Mullan edged it. Not much to choose between Schonert, Collier and Williams IMO. Nathan Catt is also unlucky given his previous call-up.

Hookers:

Not much to debate here. After his Lions snub, Hartley was always going to be picked. Like Mullan, I assume Cowan-Dickie has been picked on the basis that he has more test experience/time in the camp than Taylor. It's a very tough call on Taylor, but not overly controversial considering we are only taking two hookers.

Locks:

Errr ... pretty strange here. Only taking three locks is both a bizarre and risky call. Launchbury was the obvious pick and Ewels is no surprise, but I'm amazed Isiekwe got the call. Undoubtedly he has bags of potential, but personally I think it's too soon - particularly given he is basically guaranteed to play. I could have understood picking Isiekwe more if we were taking a fourth lock and he was going for experience in the test set-up, but Eddie seems to think he's ready ...

Barring injury, our locks for the world cup will be Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes with Ewels as the reserve. I understand that it's very unlikely someone is going to leapfrog the first four in the next two years, but given the attritional nature of playing in the second row, I think we should have taken the opportunity to blood at least one more lock.

Unlucky: Quite a few. Attwood must feel his time in the England picture is over. IMO, his experience would have been beneficial so I'm surprised he's been excluded. Had we decided to go for other new faces, I would have gone for Symons or Barrow (or both). George Merrick is also apparently rated, so slightly surprised he didn't get a look-in.

Back Row:

Only taking one 8 is another unnecessary risk IMO. However, it suggests to me that Eddie feels (correctly) as though our more pressing issues in the back row are in the 6 and 7 shirts.

In selecting six flankers, it's unlikely all of them will get game time. However, I think the plan is for the Currys and Underhill to get maximum exposure from our three most experienced flankers. I'd like to see Robshaw start at 6 and I would want the Ben, Tom and Sam fighting it out for the 7 shirt in training. I'd have Haskell in the 20 shirt ready to come on if needs be, but I think that one of these lads has a real chance of making an immediate impact. At the very least, I'd like to see one or two of them off the bench. I assume Wood is there to pass on knowledge and cover lock in an emergency? Presumably the Hask will cover 8?

Unlucky: Any number of 8s ... Beaumont is a shock ommission, particularly as he could have covered lock. Like Attwood, Morgan must feel like it's a closed door. If he's still moving to Gloucester, Fearns could feel hard done by. I assume Mercer is not going because they want him to captain the U20s and because they want to prioritise looking at the rookie flankers?

Lots of flankers too. Is Harrison now considered a failed experiment and is Wiliams no longer considered good enough? Tough on Armand, Ewers and Chisholm too. Kvesic is the obvious outlier, but having barely played this season, he clearly wasn't going to be picked. Personally, I still think the move to Chiefs will put him back in the mix.

Scrum Half:

Another head scratcher ... It suggests to me that Youngs and Care are there to stay until 2019 unless Maunder can make a real impression.

Massive/unexpected kick in the teeth for Robson. I appreciate he's inconsistent, but it's hardly as though Youngs and Care are the model of consistency. Huge opportunity for Maunder though ...

Unlucky: Robson and Spencer must have been eyeing this as an opportunity.

Fly Half:

Ford was an obvious pick and given Lozowski's form and previous inclusion, I'd argue he was a shoo-in too. Francis is an unusual one. I'm not sure if he's been taken as a 10 or 12?

Unlucky: On recent form Freddie Burns has to be considered very unlucky, but I imagine the versatility of Lozowski and Francis was the main factor.

Centre:

Slade was the obvious pick at 12, but the inclusion of Francis and Mallinder (who is very lucky BTW!) suggests Eddie wants to persevere with a second playmaker. Slade has a great opportunity here. Marchant and James are clearly the best fit and available options for the 13 shirt.

Unlucky: Tompkins and Devoto must have been in consideration. Also, if we're looking for a player to cover 10/12, I would have gone for Ryan Mills over Francis.

Wing:

May was the obvious pick and Solomona is an opportunistic selection, but I'm expecting the two of them to start. I'm surprised by Earle and very surprised by Cokanasiga, but the selection of both suggests that we want a big, powerful winger as an alternative to the others we already have. Whether either can make enough of an impact to stay involved is a separate question. Earle should get more game time with Ashton going and Cokanasiga's fate is pretty much down to whether LI are promoted or not I'd say.

Unlucky: Wade! But then again he is clearly unfancied. Short and Woodburn had a good case IMO.

Fullback:

Going with only Brown suggests to me that Eddie views either Daly, Watson or possibly, Nowell as the future in the 15 shirt.

Unlucky: Haley, Woodward, Marshall
 
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On Piers Francis, Eddie said in an interview that he offers a different option at 10, so yes he is going as a 10, not a 12. Hopefully this means that Loz could get a run at FB.
 
I think Malinder might also be there as FB cover. I always think he looks really good when he plays there.

If he continues improving his defence he's defiantly in with a shout for a place in the team somewhere.
 
Definitely know that the pundits on BT sport have said that Jones thinks Mallinder is a long term prospect at 15. How accurate that is I don't know...

From what I can see, Jones has his squad pretty much sorted and is looking at the younger, longer term instead of just picking older players who are good, but maybe not good enough.
 
scotty507 said:
Will argentina have a full strength side?

With how theyve improved over recent years putting a second string team with players who some have which have bearly played in the prem never mind international is that going to be too much for them? And for england losing 16 of our top players to the lions?

Just dont want to get beat then use the excuse of youth and inexperience.
Click to expand...

Personally I think Argentina have gone backwards at a rate of knots in the last 2 years .....
 
Well I think theres two things to take from the selections...

1.
Those who we expected to be selected but have not been: Either they haven't made the improvements that Jones has requested or there are others who he thinks have more potential. Im sure he'll have given all those left behind clear instructions of what he wants and some motiviation! Haley, Taylor, Robson etc etc....

2.
Its also quite clear from this squad (in my opinion anyway) that Jones doesn't rate many of the current young generation...so he's elected to look further down the line and see if the even younger generation has EVEN more ability than the current Lions etc. He's said so himself!

For example - Our locks are amongst the best in the world and all fairly young. Dom Barrow (or any of the current locks of his age group) are not likely to make a huge impression on the squad anytime soon, why bother taking him on tour! So Jones has taken this opportunity to look at the NEXT generation for the special ones. Sarries are raving about young Isiekwe (and they're a pretty good judge of players! ) so Jones is looking at him now. Cant argue with that.

Similar in the back row. Jones has his established back row players but he knows they aren't getting younger and the recent generation...Harrison, Clifford, Chisholm, Conlon etc haven't done it (yet) and maybe he doesn't see huge potential. So he's looking even further down the line at the Currys, Underhill etc. Again I cant argue with that as I haven't been impressed with Clifford or Harrison etc in the England set up...
 
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England Home Grown talent by club (At the club that could claim home grown credits from them) representing Lions, Seniors, U20 and U18.
Saracens: 16 (George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Isiekwe, Francis, Earle, Adams-Hale, Earl, Nay, Crossdale, Malins, Morris, Christie, Reffell, Obatoyinbo)
Harlequins: 13 (Marler, Sinkler, Collier, Launchbury, Robshaw, Marchant, Brown, Aspland-Robinson, Ibitoye, Coyle, Smith, Head, Murley)
Exeter: 10 (Nowell, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maunder, Slade, Caulfield, Street, Kenny, Capstick, Wright)
Sale: 9 (Curry, Curry, James, Mitchell, Wilkinson, Reed, Dolly, Redpath, Moore)
Gloucester: 8 (May, Knight, Mullis, Seville, Walker, Randall, Seabrook, Hinkley)
Leicester:8 (Cole, Youngs, Ford, Evans, Umaga, Hardwick, Heyes, Grahamslaw)
Worcester: 8 (Hartley, Mullan, Wood, Clegg, Butler, David, Scott, Hill)
London Irish: 8 (Joseph, Watson, Cokanasiga, Brophy Clews, Parton, Basham, Loader)
Bristol: 6 (Vunipola, Genge, Dawe, Capon, Dunn, Rowland)
Wasps: 5 (Vunipola, Daly, Haskell, Tunney, Porter)
Yorkshire: 5 (Hill, Care, Lozowski, Wright, Fox)
Northampton: 4 (Lawes, Mallinder, Dingwall, Strachan)
Bath: 3 (Ewels, Bayliss, Mercer)
Newcastle: 3 (Blamire, Davies, Kelemeti)

Just shows how much Sarries have put into their Academy.

Also that the top 2 teams have more players involved than the 6 teams combined.
 
There were some very interesting comments from Eddie regarding the tour selection in this week's TRP.

"If we can produce three or four players from this tour that get us something a little bit different from what we have it will be a great boost."

Considering we're taking 16 uncapped players, that says something about Eddie's expectations on how many of those are likely to become a feature in the EPS in the build-up to the World Cup.

I think we're taking some real risks, but at the same time, it has taken Maro Itoje only 12 caps to make himself virtually indispensable to England and we have circa 20 remaining before Eddie will need to pick a squad for Japan. Itoje is a bit of a freak and perhaps an unfair example, but if the Curry twins continue their rapid rise for example, we may look back on this tour as having been a critical gamble.

Personally, I think one or both Currys, Underhill have a good chance of impressing in the back row, as do one or both of Collier and Williams at tighthead, Jack Maunder at scrum half and Solomona on the wing. If we come out of the tour with any combination of those becoming viable, realistic options, I think we can be very satisfied.

Eddie also bemoaned how slow/poor we are at bringing through young backs in particular:

"Young backs don't get opportunities here and they miss a lot of their formative years. England win almost every trophy at U20 level and produce good players, but then a lot of the young backs tend to stagnate because they do not get the chance to play in the Premiership."

And then goes on to say: "You look at a guy like Nathan Earle at Saracens, he's played one Premiership game this season (not sure that's correct??), whereas in the Southern Hemisphere he would have played 20 Super Rugby games. Particularly for backs, those years are formative. What happens at the moment in England is that backs go on until they drop and if clubs want an x-factor player, they sign a Willie Le Roux or a Kurtley Beale, which again makes it hard for young guys to come through."

This is all true and if Eddie's legacy is a greater number of talented young backs coming through, then that's an amazing result.
 
Looks like Tom Wood picked up an injury today that could rule him out of the tour to Argentina. I don't wish injuries on any players, but taking Wood, Robshaw and Hask to Argentina is experience overkill so this might give us a chance to see more of Underhill or the Currys in action.

Also, Marchant scored another try today, and made it into the Guardians team of the season. Really think he is the real deal whenever I've seen him play.
 
Just seen that Francis put 16 points on the Waratahs today. Interested now
 
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Twenty players called in for a training camp this week:

Forwards (9)

Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors).

Backs (11)

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Perry Humphreys (Worcester Warriors), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Jason Woodward (Bristol Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).
 
I appreciate its just a "training squad"

However.....Woodward? Another Kiwi. Pah.

The squads sounding more and more like a Friday night in a Walkabout pub in London!
 
Do you remember the shitshow last time out where No one knew who was showing it, not even the TV channels.
BBC announced they had it a couple of days before the first game and cobbled together a show, with dodgy local commentary (which, tbf, was amazing).
 
They had their own commentary, it was the Argentinian sides which they didn't do, but you could watch on the local ESPN.

I thought that show was good last time, probably because it was cobbled together.

Very happy, although I hope the broadcast quality is better than Argentina's normal showing.
 
Next training squad:


Forwards (14)
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol) , Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Backs (12)
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Willi Heinz (Gloucester), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester), Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Jason Woodward (Bristol Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)



...........Heinz? Why?
I know there's 4 clubs worth of players missing but surely there's someone better to have a look at than a 30yr old kiwi?
 
Errr ... I'm not a big fan of Heinz and I don't really want to defend it , but actually there isn't that much of a choice right this second ...

The play-offs rule out: Robson and Simpson (Wasps), Maunder, Townsend and Chudley (Chiefs), Wigglesworth and Spencer (Saracens) and Youngs and Harrison (Leicester).

Care is already there and I think at least 7 out of the 9 I mentioned from the play-off contenders would be ahead of Heinz in normal circumstances.

The other contenders would be L. Dickson (Saints) Cook (Bath), Young (Newcastle), Mitchell (Sale) and Cliff (Bristol), who with the exception of Dickson, haven't been first choice for their clubs. Heinz has.

As long as it's just for the Barbarians game, I can live with it.

Pleased for Wilson and Beaumont but not sure about Ford-Robinson?
 

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