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England v South Africa - 26/11/2022 - KO 4.30 GMT

OllyM97

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Somehow that game yesterday felt appropriate for our final game of the year, it just summed up 2022 for England. Attack laboured, defence porous, discipline abysmal and game-plan hard to determine. Our tries in the last two games have all been when the opposition have been down to 14 - that says it all. This team won’t do anything at the RWC with Eddie in charge, he’s run out of ideas and doesn’t know his best team. We’ve been poor since the end of 2017 - the run to the final in 19 was a glorious blip. Change is needed

Credit to the Springboks, considering it was their last test of the season and they were missing some big names, that was an excellent performance. The depth now in South African rugby is phenomenal and it’s ominous for the other top teams with the RWC around the corner. The Boks will take some beating next year, tough draw or not!.
 

Grizwald

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Been saying it for a while now, England are going to sleep walk into the WC. All the BS about judge us on the WC we're preparing for the WC etc is just a cop out. I would like to see England win matches and compete every 6N and win it. A good performance at the WC is a bonus, there's just too many variables to put all your eggs in that basket and use it as an excuse.

One of the problems in the current set up that Sweeny isn't a rugby person. Having someone who was/is would have given some more accountability.

Pains me we're in such a pathetic state. Target the 6N now then worry about the WC.
 

Jimbo

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The worrying this is as good as the boks were and as much as I feel the refining was poor, the boks still had another gear or so left in them, they just didn’t need to use it to dominate most facets of the game.
 

die_mole

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I feel like England has the players to insert a new coach and have things turn around in a year. Eddie just seems so tied to guys past their prime idk how this is going to work.

Edit: I do wonder if burnout has anything to do with this. The level of play across the board in test rugby has gone down since Covid. England seems to be struggling the most and their players have the biggest workload. France has pretty much decided to field reserve sides for summer tours and I think it’s paid off.
 
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Tallshort

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I feel like England has the players to insert a new coach and have things turn around in a year. Eddie just seems so tied to guys past their prime idk how this is going to work.

Edit: I do wonder if burnout has anything to do with this. The level of play across the board in test rugby has gone down since Covid. England seems to be struggling the most and their players have the biggest workload. France has pretty much decided to field reserve sides for summer tours and I think it’s paid off.
Burnout can be managed in camp. English players don't have a higher workload than anyone else. The SH teams have just completed the Rugby championship and played 4 tests plus midweek games and still performed. If players are burnout it's because of a problem with the training camp
 

die_mole

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Burnout can be managed in camp. English players don't have a higher workload than anyone else. The SH teams have just completed the Rugby championship and played 4 tests plus midweek games and still performed. If players are burnout it's because of a problem with the training camp
Yeah that’s what I was trying to get at. It seems england isn’t adjusting.
 

Tallshort

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I’m not sure who you mean by anyone, but Squidge Rugby on social media seems to suggest this quite a lot. That Eddie doesn’t want to show his hand early so teams can prepare to counter it.
Yeah I've watched that but it's more about the attacking game plan. England failed in the forward basics yesterday which is not something to be kept under wraps
 

The Oggmonster

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So does not showing his hand (from an attacking perspective) in the forthcoming 6N mean he's writing that off as well? That'd be two poor 6N in a row. If that's the route he's going down then he had better bloody win the RWC otherwise what's the point.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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So does not showing his hand (from an attacking perspective) in the forthcoming 6N mean he's writing that off as well? That'd be two poor 6N in a row. If that's the route he's going down then he had better bloody win the RWC otherwise what's the point.
3 poor 6N, we came 5th in 2021. Since the last WC, we are 3rd average in the 6N for wins but the last 2 years, we are 5th. Another bad 6n and we could finish this world cup cycle only more successful than Italy in terms of wins, depending on how Wales and Scotland are on the day.
 

The Oggmonster

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3 poor 6N, we came 5th in 2021. Since the last WC, we are 3rd average in the 6N for wins but the last 2 years, we are 5th. Another bad 6n and we could finish this world cup cycle only more successful than Italy in terms of wins, depending on how Wales and Scotland are on the day.

My bad. Another inaccurate fact from me although two poor 6N in a row is technically still correct. Aiming to peak at the RWC is all well and good but I don't think it's worth three poor 6Ns and disappointing AI's and summer tours in between. Surely there is still scope to construct a fit for purpose attacking game plan for the 6N even if the best is saved for the RWC.
 

Geordiefalcon

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Let's just get shot of him please or tell him to stop f#&ing about and get back to basics.
 

Crash Hamster

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I've never understood the "we must hide the attacking plan" idea.

Surely, for it to be effective, an attacking plan must have several options, any of which might be used in any given attack. This means decoy runners in good positions to take the ball and the defence having no idea which are decoys and which are strike runners. It also means that the plkayers have the skills to make the right choices at the right times.

Let's take a 5m lineout. The options are drive, shift drive, off the top, out the back, blindside peel, over the top, openside backs move (might have missed something, but it doesn't matter.) Knowing that doesn't mean you can stop a team scoring though.

Maybe you dont reveal *that one special move that might win you the World Cup* until you absolutely have to, but having half a dozen different plays from a 5m lineout isn't something to be hidden; if a team has seen all six doesn't mean they can stop it; if they're aware you also have a seventh *super secret RWC winning move* under wraps, they may not defend one of the original six as well as they might.

Tl;dr: the threat of a *super secret move* is going to confuse defences just as much, whether it exists or not.
 

ncurd

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The Irish convinced themselves they were hiding plans in 2015 that worked brilliantly for them.
 

The Oggmonster

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I've never understood the "we must hide the attacking plan" idea.

Surely, for it to be effective, an attacking plan must have several options, any of which might be used in any given attack. This means decoy runners in good positions to take the ball and the defence having no idea which are decoys and which are strike runners. It also means that the plkayers have the skills to make the right choices at the right times.

Let's take a 5m lineout. The options are drive, shift drive, off the top, out the back, blindside peel, over the top, openside backs move (might have missed something, but it doesn't matter.) Knowing that doesn't mean you can stop a team scoring though.

Maybe you dont reveal *that one special move that might win you the World Cup* until you absolutely have to, but having half a dozen different plays from a 5m lineout isn't something to be hidden; if a team has seen all six doesn't mean they can stop it; if they're aware you also have a seventh *super secret RWC winning move* under wraps, they may not defend one of the original six as well as they might.

Tl;dr: the threat of a *super secret move* is going to confuse defences just as much, whether it exists or not.

Exactly. Have a playbook with different options for different scenarios. A head coach worth his salt will coach the players to make the right decisions at the right time.

Keeping a plan under wraps is a load of BS unless it's saved for the RWC final. If it's unleashed at the group stage, QF or SF then other teams coaches and analysts will still have time to study it and come up with a game plan to counter it.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Also surely a team needs to be able to practice what they are going to be doing for real? In all things, training only gets you so far, at some point you actually have to put it to the test. Either we are putting things to the test now and it's failing or we haven't tested it at all and will go into the world cup, having sacrificed numerous other competitions, without even knowing if our plans will work...
 

BrokenWing

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Seems daft doesn’t it

If you aren’t bothered about results, and you’re not giving away your plans, why not play a few different players to have a look at them?
 

Le Frére Alpha

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The Irish convinced themselves they were hiding plans in 2015 that worked brilliantly for them.
Funnily enough a new move worked against France in that world cup but Keith Earls dropped an easy pass with the line at his mercy. I still place a lot of blame for the injuries that followed on that drop because it would have put a pretty mentally weak French side away early.

To be honest, I don't think any tier 1 nation can be delighted with the last few weeks, maybe Italy but they shipped a big score. England weren't as bad as the score would suggest yesterday but they lacked discipline and were out fought, two bad traits that have become commonplace with them. SA were very good but I still don't see anything to suggest they'll be unbeatable come September, insane squad depth though so they can't be discounted at all.

The encouraging thing from an England POV is that all of the top 3 are within reach, I think there is enough talent in the set up and I find it difficult to discount Jones. Still all in their own hands but they need a shift in gear come the 6n.
 

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