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England v South Africa - 26/11/2022 - KO 4.30 GMT

die_mole

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Funnily enough a new move worked against France in that world cup but Keith Earls dropped an easy pass with the line at his mercy. I still place a lot of blame for the injuries that followed on that drop because it would have put a pretty mentally weak French side away early.

To be honest, I don't think any tier 1 nation can be delighted with the last few weeks, maybe Italy but they shipped a big score. England weren't as bad as the score would suggest yesterday but they lacked discipline and were out fought, two bad traits that have become commonplace with them. SA were very good but I still don't see anything to suggest they'll be unbeatable come September, insane squad depth though so they can't be discounted at all.

The encouraging thing from an England POV is that all of the top 3 are within reach, I think there is enough talent in the set up and I find it difficult to discount Jones. Still all in their own hands but they need a shift in gear come the 6n.
This was the worst fall window I can remember. I wasn’t exactly looking forward to they may be affecting my view. Even South Africa’s test against Ireland and france were sluggish although they were the best tests of the window. Australia had the gaul to come up here and do 5 weeks of that nonsense.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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A few special set plays don’t win you a World Cup though. We haven’t got the basics right for some time and our players often looks worse for England than their clubs. We also are poor at the set piece, have poor attacking interplay and still give away stupid penalties.

Do you have to be rubbish the year before a WC to win it? Not at all.

Do you have to have a team that can play together and do the basics right to win the World Cup, absolutely.

Think Jones is just talking his usual drivel and is trying to take the pressure off the players (like he did in 2018) when in reality he’s cocked up the selection and tactics and training again.
 

Wendigo7

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So does not showing his hand (from an attacking perspective) in the forthcoming 6N mean he's writing that off as well? That'd be two poor 6N in a row. If that's the route he's going down then he had better bloody win the RWC otherwise what's the point.
Because if it doesn’t work, well, hes ultimately a gigantic mercenary. Time to take his words at face value and read between the lines. He’s manipulated the media terribly and no one has realised it.

Having a 4 year plan is great because if it doesn’t work, oh well I got a paycheck… I don’t care. Same scenario here and no one is twigging it.
 

TRF_stormer2010

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It's difficult to know how much to read into this result. I think we've been very consistent these 4 matches. Which is good in and of itself. Particularly in light of the fact that a lot of the issues *should* be rectified merely by the inclusion of a few front liners and its good to have had the opportunity to broaden our depth of experience.

For this match I just think we probably wanted it more than England after the close losses to Ireland and France and having lost the last two vs England each by 1 point. Its great to beat a tier 1 side by multiple scores but one needs to keep in mind that we actually had the rub of the green this time (wonder if Rassie is going to mention that..) and it looks like England probably aren't at their best.

Looks like Arendse has moved in ahead of both Moodie and Nkosi as Kolbe's deputy at 14. Le Roux is starting 15. I'd have liked to give Gelant a shot but it seems he is not in the picture. Willemse is nailed on as wearing the #23 shirt and has at least gotten game enough at this level. Mixed success. Libbok I hope has done enough so that we don't see Jantjies. Pollard still our most important player even if I think Am is our best. Am very close to being most important though seeing as Kriel looks to be a fixture as next in line at 13.

In the pack we have depth though Etzebeth is close on being irreplacible. Marx is quite important as well. Hope he stays fit and Pollard, Am and De Klerk get fit and in form. All in all I think we have a squad that could conceivably buck the every-12-years-trend and I almost want to say our form leading into the RWC is largely irrelevant because of the type of game we play. We've won world cups with 10's not close to being the world's best before so we can do it again but then those times our 9s have been close to a shoe in for a world XV so Faf- assuming it is going to be Faf- will need to be fit and at his best. That or Pollard finding his early career form. I'd be more inclined to expect Faf to fire when it matters.

I still however think England are right in the mix come the RWC next year. Even just the fact that they will walz into a SF to face opposition that would've played essentially 2 RWC finals already places them in a good position. IE they only need to step up for a SF and final should they make it. They also traditionally play low risk rugby with strong fundamentals which has proven to be a good recipe for RWC success.

All I can say is I am very excited for next year!
 
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JohnKA

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It's difficult to know how much to read into this result. I think we've been very consistent these 4 matches. Which is good in and of itself. Particularly in light of the fact that a lot of the issues *should* be rectified merely by the inclusion of a few front liners and its good to have had the opportunity to broaden our depth of experience.

For this match I just think we probably wanted it more than England after the close losses to Ireland and France and having lost the last two vs England each by 1 point. Its great to beat a tier 1 side by multiple scores but one needs to keep in mind that we actually had the rub of the green this time (wonder if Rassie is going to mention that..) and it looks like England probably aren't at their best.

Looks like Arendse has moved in ahead of both Moodie and Nkosi as Kolbe's deputy at 14. Le Roux is starting 15. I'd have liked to give Gelant a shot but it seems he is not in the picture. Willemse is nailed on as wearing the #23 shirt and has at least gotten game enough at this level. Mixed success. Libbok I hope has done enough so that we don't see Jantjies. Pollard still our most important player even if I think Am is our best. Am very close to being most important though seeing as Kriel looks to be a fixture as next in line at 13.

In the pack we have depth though Etzebeth is close on being irreplacible. Marx is quite important as well. Hope he stays fit and Pollard, Am and De Klerk get fit and in form. All in all I think we have a squad that could conceivably buck the every-12-years-trend and I almost want to say our form leading into the RWC is largely irrelevant because of the type of game we play. We've won world cups with 10's not close to being the world's best before so we can do it again but then those times our 9s have been close to a shoe in for a world XV so Faf- assuming it is going to be Faf- will need to be fit and at his best. That or Pollard finding his early career form. I'd be more inclined to expect Faf to fire when it matters.

I still however think England are right in the mix come the RWC next year. Even just the fact that they will walz into a SF to face opposition that would've played essentially 2 RWC finals already places them in a good position. IE they only need to step up for a SF and final should they make it. They also traditionally play low risk rugby with strong fundamentals which has proven to be a good recipe for RWC success.

All I can say is I am very excited for next year!
What did you think of Roos ? I am not convinced yet ? I just have a feeling he is not going to make the step up
 

TRF_stormer2010

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What did you think of Roos ? I am not convinced yet ? I just have a feeling he is not going to make the step up

It was already better for me. But only slightly mind you. I just think he has such a ceiling. But he hasn't had a chance yet to carry from the positions he carries for the Stormers. So to some extent our game plan isn't making use of what we have in him.

We've seen Kolisi and PSDT start when able to stand on two legs and Mostert is seen as PSDT's deputy so no hope to have an actual open side while Kolisi can pick up a ball. That puts pressure on the rest of the pack to contribute at the breakdown. It hasn't been an issue with both Vermeulen and Marx there but at this stage I'd not take Vermeulen to the RWC unless he shows a marked increase in fitness. I'd have Wiese as 1st choice though Wiese also didn't particularly impress in his first two matches and now I'd have him start ahead of Vermeulen so I think there is hope yet for Roos. I wouldn't have any of them on the bench though. You want more rounded players on the bench. That is where I think Kwagga shines with Fourie next in line in my book. I'd take Roos ahead of Louw as next in line for Wiese. But that is largely based on how much of a ridiculous 2021 Roos had so I guess my stance would be to give him more opportunity but I don't see him as starting a RWC unless we have injury. I think Roos and a player like Henco van Wyk will only really start to feature (and only as back up) post 2023.
 

Old Hooker

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I don't think EJ was deliberately sandbagging in 2018 he was just running the players into the ground so that they'd be fitter and work better under stress/fatigue in 2019
Seemed hopeful at the time but paid off in the end
Did it?

Excellent in the SF and good in QF. But let’s not forget that was on the back of not having to play our toughest group match. Then a complete no show in the final despite an extra day’s rest.
 

Jimbo

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Did it?

Excellent in the SF and good in QF. But let’s not forget that was on the back of not having to play our toughest group match. Then a complete no show in the final despite an extra day’s rest.
I’d completely forgotten about the unplayed France game, I guess group stage wise England really didn’t have to do too much on reflection.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Did it?

Excellent in the SF and good in QF. But let’s not forget that was on the back of not having to play our toughest group match. Then a complete no show in the final despite an extra day’s rest.
Comfortably beating the all blacks and getting to the final was significantly better than most pre tournament predictions
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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Comfortably beating the all blacks and getting to the final was significantly better than most pre tournament predictions
I doubt any conditioning done in that England 2018 period would have had any lasting effect next year.

How many other teams also do that to win the WC?

Just because 2018 happened, it doesn’t mean Jones actually planned it and it doesn’t mean it was a positive impact on the 2019 WC.
 

Reiser99

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Comfortably beating the all blacks and getting to the final was significantly better than most pre tournament predictions
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it will happen again and as yourself, myself and many others have said, getting to the final was the exception not the rule. Yes England came second at the world cup which was a great result even if disappointing not to win, but I'm calling bullshit on any theories or evidence that it was planned and 2018 was used to. For me it's irrelevant now because I view it as England punching above their weight (in terms of performances by England under EJ recently). All evidence points to Jones being clueless and too stubborn to admit he's wrong and there is no master plan to turn England around.
 

TRF_Olyy

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For me it's irrelevant now because I view it as England punching above their weight (in terms of performances by England under EJ recently).
Yeah, I don't really believe it but if you give him the benefit of the doubt he did say he was doing it and it seemed to happen so 🤷‍♂️
Like you said: All irrelevant, was just an observation
 

Geordiefalcon

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Is Robertson available now? Or is he still coaching.

If he is...get him in now and give him the 6n to have a look.

Ignore, answered on other thread.
 

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