England vs New Zealand - 15/11/2025

[Kiwiwomble]

with no authority i speak for kiwis here

reading through more AB centric forums and the concensus was very much about the things we did wrong and that whilst England were not perfect...even rough in some areas...they were better than us and most importantly more consistant over the 80min, weathered a fast start from the AB's and ground their way back and comfotable at the end

Personally i think even in the first 20mins when we scored...england looked more up for it, hitting the ball at pace and throwing them selves at the defence fearlessly...we seem to take the ball stationary and then take the hit limply

re the ref, lots of kiwis also believe we were copping some bad calls, i think we can probably all just start to accept they can be bad...more often than they should be...but very rarely actually favouring one team over the other a whole game and so the kiwis claiming the ref cost them or the english claiming to have won against 16...should both realise it comes across as weak

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

re the ref, lots of kiwis also believe we were copping some bad calls, i think we can probably all just start to accept they can be bad...more often than they should be...but very rarely actually favouring one team over the other a whole game and so the kiwis claiming the ref cost them or the english claiming to have won against 16...should both realise it comes across as weak

I'm highly guilty of ref-blaming when excited during matches. Makes you look a bit silly when England get a dodgy call their way soon after. I thought Piardi did poorly, but even by the end of the match I didn't think he was unfair to either team. I'll criticise him for making controversial calls on plays that didn't need to affect the game - Barrett's yellow card, Ford's non-try - but it's also a job I don't envy at all.

Rugby is complex and subjective, people will always be upset about refereeing. So yes, agreed. Bad ref (how many good refs actually are there now, really?), but not biased.

 

[Five Meters Out]

I think Ardie Savea has finally reached the end of his season.
Didn't play badly, but less effective.
Not surprising, given he was carrying Manu Samoa, virtually on his own, way back in Feb- May.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think Ardie Savea has finally reached the end of his season.
Didn't play badly, but less effective.
Not surprising, given he was carrying Manu Samoa, virtually on his own, way back in Feb- May.

moana pasifika? the rugby fans i talk too its been a common opinion he should have been moved to the bench years ago, his impact in the final 30 minutes could actually be game changing....rather than diluted and disjointed across a whole game

just this morning i have see far more calls than ive seen before for BB (a 10 thats not a good kicker out of hand and a slow passer), scooter (an quiet captain and card magnet) and Savea (burnt out and at his best an erratic influence)...too be dropped...and not for a rest....finally a sea change

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

At what point is he going to get some credit from you?

It’s not meant to come across like that but I’ve got high expectations for an England coach and at times SB shows he understands the players, tactics etc but then there are times when he seems to doubt himself and start teams with the wrong tactics. I really thought the first half tactics against the all blacks were Incorrect and played into their strengths.

After half time we changed it up and we started making hay. It’s the same with subs, last year he messed up the subs and timings etc and this year has improved. I think he’s a coach that’s learning still and although we’ve had great success he shouldn’t be learning like that on the job.

So he gets lots of credit but I have high expectations.

 

[BPM]

moana pasifika? the rugby fans i talk too its been a common opinion he should have been moved to the bench years ago, his impact in the final 30 minutes could actually be game changing....rather than diluted and disjointed across a whole game

just this morning i have see far more calls than ive seen before for BB (a 10 thats not a good kicker out of hand and a slow passer), scooter (an quiet captain and card magnet) and Savea (burnt out and at his best an erratic influence)...too be dropped...and not for a rest....finally a sea change

A sea change seems harsh. However, it does feel like BB’s race is close to being run. Fantastic player and seems to be a very nice guy, but time catches up with us all and if he’s not the player he was now, he certainly won’t be in 2yrs time.

I can see the logic in using Savea as an impact sub. However, the guy is such a talisman that I think losing his on field ‘mana’ would be a really big loss for what could quickly become a pretty callow group.

From a more positive POV, the likes Lakai and Sititi are a very good group to build around.

 

[Geordie]

I would say he was pretty good in last years six nations v Ireland and France

And let's be real v SA in that Semi final that was only 2 years ago so in what world is that a long time?

If memory serves me he was massive v Ireland in that same year six nations

The odd game here and there is great but theres no consistency. He just seems to be there for a game or two then out again. Now I maybe doing him a disservice, is there a list of how many England games hes played and how many hes missed.
You cant build a team around inconsistent selection availability.

I genuinely hope this final layoff has really fixed his issues, but if not with a clutch of big units coming through he "could" find himself out the picture completely

EDIT
Ok doing a quick search, he maybe hasnt missed as many as i thought. But cant get anything concrete.

 

[Crash Hamster]

It's not meant to come across like that but I've got high expectations for an England coach and at times SB shows he understands the players, tactics etc but then there are times when he seems to doubt himself and start teams with the wrong tactics. I really thought the first half tactics against the all blacks were Incorrect and played into their strengths.

After half time we changed it up and we started making hay. It's the same with subs, last year he messed up the subs and timings etc and this year has improved. I think he's a coach that's learning still and although we've had great success he shouldn't be learning like that on the job.

So he gets lots of credit but I have high expectations.

I think this is fair.

Borthwick is lucky enough to have got the job when England have the biggest glut of talented attacking backs I can remember and he was very slow to realise this. However, he's starting to utilise them well now. The forwards are also a very good pack, if less exceptional, and they're going well too. The conveyor belt of talent looks solid.

If he could just stop the 'kick it away off phase 2 in the opponent's 22' garbage, we could be an awful lot better.

This team is probably good enough to hand out routine thrashings to everyone bar South Africa if developed to their full potential. Borthwick is now certainly on this road and doing a good job. He's also fortunate to have followed the most important bit in the coach's handbook: have very talented players to work with.

 

[Rinkadink]

All this talk of locks but only one mention of Batley. Be interesting if James Dun gets name dropped after a while at Quins.

Personally, the most exciting talent coming through in that position is Joe Owen. Not the finished article yet but the potential is utterly ridiculous. He can also play 6, as multi-position seems to be fashionable at present.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Sodeke by far is the most promising lock imo

 

[Kiwiwomble]

A sea change seems harsh. However, it does feel like BB's race is close to being run. Fantastic player and seems to be a very nice guy, but time catches up with us all and if he's not the player he was now, he certainly won't be in 2yrs time.

I can see the logic in using Savea as an impact sub. However, the guy is such a talisman that I think losing his on field 'mana' would be a really big loss for what could quickly become a pretty callow group.

From a more positive POV, the likes Lakai and Sititi are a very good group to build around.

i feel BB has always been rated more highly overseas than in NZ, i and others ive talked too would say he hasnt been consistently world class for+5 years...and abjectly more bad than good for the last 2-3

there was a social media post going around a few weeks with the mount rushmore of 10's....including BB....most kiwis i knew we saying stuff like hes possibly not even top 5 kiwis 10's of all time let alone the world, yes he was world player of the year....a decade ago

savea has always been a paradox...amazing individual player....but has never 100% jelled with the players around him (partly because we keep moving people around), i remember a couple of years ago talking about his tendency to make these amazing breaks....that were unplanned and unexpected and so he left his support behind and got isolated....or at best got an offload to the one guy that went with him...who then got isolated...but the break goes on the highlight reel

 

[IT157]

i feel BB has always been rated more highly overseas than in NZ, i and others ive talked too would say he hasnt been consistently world class for+5 years...and abjectly more bad than good for the last 2-3

there was a social media post going around a few weeks with the mount rushmore of 10's....including BB....most kiwis i knew we saying stuff like hes possibly not even top 5 kiwis 10's of all time let alone the world, yes he was world player of the year....a decade ago

savea has always been a paradox...amazing individual player....but has never 100% jelled with the players around him (partly because we keep moving people around), i remember a couple of years ago talking about his tendency to make these amazing breaks....that were unplanned and unexpected and so he left his support behind and got isolated....or at best got an offload to the one guy that went with him...who then got isolated...but the break goes on the highlight reel

BB is a terrific player. I think he is bizarrely underrated which is a weird thing to say when a player has won rugby player of the year twice.

He's not in his peak anymore but he's still one of the best players in the world. His ability and what he sees on the pitch is perhaps only matched by Dupont and maybe a handful of others in world rugby.

When it comes to kiwi 10's Carter is number 1. But BB might be a better overall player. Both world class.

I guess me typing this kind of proves your point of him being more highly rated overseas haha

 

[Kiwiwomble]

thats exactly it, i dont know if its the highlight reel effect and people only remembering the good stuff or we're just more critical of our own....probably both

hes and a subjectively average passer of the ball for an international rugby player....so slow which puts our midfield under pressure and cant kick for territory, he's put in some awesome cross field kick passes....but everyone forgets the 3 bad ones before the one the lands....and some horrible decision making trying them in our own 22 when under pressure

i will die on the hill if you go and look up highlight videos...a disproportionate number of the clips hes got 22 on his back, so hes doing flashing stuff against tired defences...but also means theyre mostly from more than 7-8 years ago

i think he only knows one way to play, you'll never see him grab a game by the throat and single handily keep a team in the own half by plugging the corners...if he cant do a kick pass or 30m skip pass...he just shovels on **** and tries again

 

[Ddanno]

Since we're on the Barretts, I've never found Scott very impressive. Big shoes to fill now that Whitelock and Retallick are gone, but he seems kinda vapid? Nuts and bolts are fine but just doesn't have the dog, aggression or passion of Kiwi locks gone past to me?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Since we're on the Barretts, I've never found Scott very impressive. Big shoes to fill now that Whitelock and Retallick are gone, but he seems kinda vapid? Nuts and bolts are fine but just doesn't have the dog, aggression or passion of Kiwi locks gone past to me?

lack aggression never been his problem IMO, famously a bit of a hot head and card magnet...ive never thought he had the smarts or as you say passion....ive never seen him giving a passionate rev up speech when we're behind. i think he one of those guys thats wilted under the addition pressure and also got moved back and forward between lock and 6....when he needed to concentrate on doing one thing well

now the AB's are in a bit of a paradox....loosing more than we want/should...and afraid to trust the next generation, determined that experience is the key....so we keep trying the same players...but lots of these guys only have experience of being an average tier one team or experience straight out losing...but we keep picking them...which gives them more caps....so on paper they look like these hardened veterans...so when we lose again and look for a change we see players with +60 caps and say lets try them....forgetting they were dropped for a reason...

one of the most damning things for me was savea after the first home series loss to Ireland, the press asked him what it was like to to be part of that loss...said he had no idea....not only did he not care enough to know the history....he played in the first ever loss to ireland (and played in every one since)...so he wasnt with it enough to click that if he was there when we lost the first ever game...and that was in Chicago...then theyd never won in NZ....which meant theyd never won a series...its just a sign that for lost of the current generation is just a job....not an honour

 

[Duct Tape]

Jeez. Lose 3 games since July 5 and Barrett’s getting thrown under the bus.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Jeez. Lose 3 games since July 5 and Barrett's getting thrown under the bus.

he was pretty bad, most common rating over seen is 3/10...so hardly thrown under the bus, and not so much about the 3 losses since july than very few of the wins were because of him....and mroe often than not in spite of him

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Beauden Barrett definitely isn't the best 10 to play since Carter, like I think picking between him and Dan Biggar in their primes cones totally down to who you have around them, both Wales and NZ would have been worse off if they'd swapped nationalities at the age of 18. An absolute weapon in 2016 and 2017 when NZ were mostly still so dominant they could afford a luxury player at 10 but I can't really remember him ever grinding it out in that position.

15 is a different story, he was so so good on his day. Don't think NZ beat us in the last world cup with anyone else at 15, the way he could diffuse an attack or start one of his own with fairly subtle contributions whilst also being a gamebreaking threat himself was magic.

Tangentially, what's Richie Mo'unga's story? Missing link if I've ever seen one

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Since we're on the Barretts, I've never found Scott very impressive. Big shoes to fill now that Whitelock and Retallick are gone, but he seems kinda vapid? Nuts and bolts are fine but just doesn't have the dog, aggression or passion of Kiwi locks gone past to me?

The kiwi Charlie Ewels

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ardie isn’t the problem, the problem is they expect him to save them from everything

Same with BB (although maintain he’s a 15 first really)

They can pull off performances that no one else can, so people just get lazy and expect it from them in general.

Let’s be real and coaching has been a big issue Foster wasn’t great and Robertson is finding out super rugby is a very different thing to international