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England vs South Africa 20 / 11 / 2021

Becca

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College football is a greater chasm to the NFL than Rugby League is to Rugby Union. Would you consider Rugby Union & League different sports?
Yes they are different sports. Both emanate from the same idea but the laws are very different.
 

big ginger 8

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College football is a greater chasm to the NFL than Rugby League is to Rugby Union. Would you consider Rugby Union & League different sports?

That was obviously where you were going but they do in your hole. HS->College->NFL players flow from one to the next and can't go back. RL and RU don't work like that.

Schoolboy rugby has some different rules to professional rugby. That doesn't make it a different sport.

Also not combat sports by any common definition anyway.
 

ChicagoKid

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Yes they are different sports. Both emanate from the same idea but the laws are very different.
You just described CFB versus NFL: https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/07/11/college-football-ncaa-rules-difference-pros
Major reach
Resident expert eh?
Are you saying that they are actually different sports?
Not me, coaches who have been in the NFL and College Football say it's a different sport.
That was obviously where you were going but they do in your hole. HS->College->NFL players flow from one to the next and can't go back. RL and RU don't work like that.

Schoolboy rugby has some different rules to professional rugby. That doesn't make it a different sport.

Also not combat sports by any common definition anyway.

Simply put, college football is a lateral game like rugby. Due to a different field and rule set, the game is played from one sideline to the other. In the NFL, the field/ruleset is designed for verticality. The top players in college football oftentimes don't even make an NFL roster. Not only are the rules and field different, but the body types and athleticism are also miles apart.
 

thejackal

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Two minutes was long enough to lose patience. (actually the music just did)

That overanalyses of every decision a referee makes will kill the game far quicker than anything else that's been suggested.

Much like in football refereeing performances only get called into question by the losing side. South Africa didn’t lose this game because of the referee.
 

TRF_stormer2010

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What I've learnt from coming back to this thread;

1) Sweeping generalizations isn't a thing in just SA
2) SA fans are intolerable in defeat
3) England fans are intolerable in victory

I don't know about the first point but I might suggest something in the form of an easy solution for points 2 and 3...
 

Groundhog

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You just described CFB versus NFL: https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/07/11/college-football-ncaa-rules-difference-pros

Resident expert eh?

Not me, coaches who have been in the NFL and College Football say it's a different sport.


Simply put, college football is a lateral game like rugby. Due to a different field and rule set, the game is played from one sideline to the other. In the NFL, the field/ruleset is designed for verticality. The top players in college football oftentimes don't even make an NFL roster. Not only are the rules and field different, but the body types and athleticism are also miles apart.
I watch tonnes of college football and NFL (have seen a decent amount of hs too) and this argument is mind boggling to me. They're not different sports, they're different levels of the same sport with pretty marginal rule changes. To say these changes are more significant than the difference between union and league is just false. The fact that the clock stops briefly between first downs in CFB, or only having to get one foot inbounds vs two is not comparable to the differences between league and union.

We have pretty reasonable differences and rulesets between the levels of rugby here in Ireland too, particularly in relation to the scrum, is that a different sport?

We're fully aware that most college players don't go pro, but 99.99% of NFL players played at the NCAA level. The body types are different only to the extent you're dealing with 18 and 19 year olds. The cream of the crop will absolutely be built like and NFL player.

Also I'm pretty sure if we split out the most popular sports it goes 1. NFL 2. MLB 3. NCAA Football, but I can't find a straight answer on this anywhere l.

Also American Football is not a combat sport, you may be thinking contact sport.
 
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Don't Skip Leg Day

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Wow, love the level this thread has gone down to. Although it’s expected, SA are really sore losers and Americans are generally not that smart it appears.
 

ncurd

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Its like idiots who argue T20 Cricket and Test Cricket aren't the same sport (and the difference is far greater in terms how the sport is played).

I've never heard an American i know ever try to claim this. They'd probably laugh at the idea.
 

Groundhog

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Let’s face it, we can all be a bunch of ***** from time to time. We can all be stupid, clever, right, wrong etc etc.

Let’s save the really massive fall out for the WC.
Not so hasty, we have the shitshow of Six Nations match day threads to get through first! I'm considering trying to get in a slinging match with the French this year, just for a change
 

big ginger 8

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Not so hasty, we have the shitshow of Six Nations match day threads to get through first! I'm considering trying to get in a slinging match with the French this year, just for a change

If you can find a French person I'll be impressed. French Fan might turn up but he hates Galthie so will probably agree. The only person you'll get into it with is the whatever he's calling himself now bro.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Is 1 card from 18 really mad, I mean teams aim to keep under 10 pens at international, most teams probably get around that but don’t average a yellow per game, is there some perfect threshold for penalties per card that just happens to be 9, as 8 would mean England deserved two and SA one.
I'm comparing to Fiji like... And I think England deserved their win, SA weren't clinical enough and I don't think being up an extra man would have changed much the way they were playing. And trust me, I didn't care who won that match, I had to support SA three times during the summer, more than enough for a year.

My previous post was saying that there should be a threshold and that it's something that bothers me in rugby. Whether it's every 7 or 8 penalties or let a team reach ten and then go for every 5. Bad discipline and constant penalties without cards coming really ruins the flow of the game when currently we have refs just base it off how they feel (and often how a home crowd influences).

I also think 18 penalties for one team penalty is mad, France gave away six penalties v Wales this year and got a team yellow, it wasn't even on the last penalty that they got one. The inconsistency is baffling.

I don't understand why rugby equips a ref with a team of four other officials and leaves almost everything up to the ref. The other one is the TMO, the ref shouldn't be able to influence their TMO, give an on field decision, am opinion on what happened and let the TMO male the decision from there. Refs are influencing far more than they have to and its leading to more and more disputed performances.
 

ncurd

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I'm comparing to Fiji like... And I think England deserved their win, SA weren't clinical enough and I don't think being up an extra man would have changed much the way they were playing. And trust me, I didn't care who won that match, I had to support SA three times during the summer, more than enough for a year.

My previous post was saying that there should be a threshold and that it's something that bothers me in rugby. Whether it's every 7 or 8 penalties or let a team reach ten and then go for every 5. Bad discipline and constant penalties without cards coming really ruins the flow of the game when currently we have refs just base it off how they feel (and often how a home crowd influences).

I also think 18 penalties for one team penalty is mad, France gave away six penalties v Wales this year and got a team yellow, it wasn't even on the last penalty that they got one. The inconsistency is baffling.

I don't understand why rugby equips a ref with a team of four other officials and leaves almost everything up to the ref. The other one is the TMO, the ref shouldn't be able to influence their TMO, give an on field decision, am opinion on what happened and let the TMO male the decision from there. Refs are influencing far more than they have to and its leading to more and more disputed performances.
The only with hard count for a team yellow is the types of penalty given away, does a straight yellow/red count towards it. I think the below a fair assessment (don't read the comments) although as noted an attacking pen tends to have less 'weight' than an attacking one. You also have question if its fair to add scrum penalties to the list as well.


Still I think Brace should of branded a yellow card earlier and I think it might more influenced by its being a different half (there does seam to be a reset that occurs that shouldn't, as well as length of time between warning and the next penalty) and the nature of those first half penalties. Whether it would changed I don't know the yellow card period actually was the point where England started to get a better grip on the game that they were badly loosing.

Not that it should of made a difference Kolisi should or probably had a word with the Brace earlier and he certainly shouldn't of had it when a potential yellow card was not given, it wasn't clear at first that was what he was arguing for and looked like it was dissent for the TMO decision. So a bad bit of ref management (thank god we didn;t have Farrell he'd probably got it upgraded to a red).
 

Which Tyler

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I'm comparing to Fiji like... And I think England deserved their win, SA weren't clinical enough and I don't think being up an extra man would have changed much the way they were playing. And trust me, I didn't care who won that match, I had to support SA three times during the summer, more than enough for a year.

My previous post was saying that there should be a threshold and that it's something that bothers me in rugby. Whether it's every 7 or 8 penalties or let a team reach ten and then go for every 5. Bad discipline and constant penalties without cards coming really ruins the flow of the game when currently we have refs just base it off how they feel (and often how a home crowd influences).

I also think 18 penalties for one team penalty is mad, France gave away six penalties v Wales this year and got a team yellow, it wasn't even on the last penalty that they got one. The inconsistency is baffling.

I don't understand why rugby equips a ref with a team of four other officials and leaves almost everything up to the ref. The other one is the TMO, the ref shouldn't be able to influence their TMO, give an on field decision, am opinion on what happened and let the TMO male the decision from there. Refs are influencing far more than they have to and its leading to more and more disputed performances.
A] That looks like you're wanting to simplify something - which goes against everything that rugby stands for.

B] Do you reset that after giving a yellow? whether for accumulation or one-off?

C] In this case, they'd be right to object, as it's too simplistic. "penalty offence" covers too great a range of sins to then base anything off the US judicial systems (in turn, based on a simplified version of rounders) and say "3 strikes and you're out". There's a world of difference between a cynical laying on the wrong side of the ball within 1m of your own try line, versus an obedience to the laws of physics rather than rugby (someone jumps into you / falls face first onto your arm), or simply being less good than your opponent (scrum).

Typically, it's an accumulation of cynicism, or an accumulation the same damned penalty, or persistent within 5 minutes and 5 metres, and almost always after a final warning has been given. I've no problem with that. Equally, I've no particular problem with codifying it (so 4th cynical penalty = team yellow) - but even then there needs to be an allowance for time frames. Reductio ad absurdium: under the cosh on your own line, and several cynical holdings on to the ball carrier / lying on the wrong side => final warning => spotless play, not a single penalty given away for 50 minutes; then another holding onto the ball carrier 50 minutes after the final warning - that should NOT end up with a team yellow IMO.
 

Old Hooker

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The only with hard count for a team yellow is the types of penalty given away, does a straight yellow/red count towards it. I think the below a fair assessment (don't read the comments) although as noted an attacking pen tends to have less 'weight' than an attacking one. You also have question if its fair to add scrum penalties to the list as well.


Still I think Brace should of branded a yellow card earlier and I think it might more influenced by its being a different half (there does seam to be a reset that occurs that shouldn't, as well as length of time between warning and the next penalty) and the nature of those first half penalties. Whether it would changed I don't know the yellow card period actually was the point where England started to get a better grip on the game that they were badly loosing.

Not that it should of made a difference Kolisi should or probably had a word with the Brace earlier and he certainly shouldn't of had it when a potential yellow card was not given, it wasn't clear at first that was what he was arguing for and looked like it was dissent for the TMO decision. So a bad bit of ref management (thank god we didn;t have Farrell he'd probably got it upgraded to a red).
You’re absolutely right and it’s all very subjective at the moment. I’m fine with subjective as long as the ref displays good judgement (hmmm) and my team isn’t disadvantaged :)

Rugby’s a complicated game, particularly for refs, but the only way to get real consistency is to apply a hard metric e.g something like the 8th team penalty leads to an automatic yellow as does every third one thereafter. Any player totting up 3 in a match would also be binned.

In some respects that’s against the spirit of the game, but coaches and players would soon adapt. As they would if not straights were penalised at scrums or if a collapsed scrum became an automatic pen (way overdue, because it’s bloody dangerous).
 
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