[EOYT] England vs. Australia 02/11/13

[TRF Mr Fish]

Ashton fumbled a forward pass from a quick tap on that play and there was another fumble in it as well. It was also play where Australia also were playing 14 men with Fardy down. It was hardly impressive stuff of an England 2002 backline vintage. It was an extremely flukey passage of play thanks to poor refereeing to win that 90 metres.

Yep, the foot in touch was just the first error in that sequence.

 

[Rich Taff]

Really can't see why Ashton is repeatedly picked. The guy's awful now that teams have figured him out. He's a poor tackler, poor passer, and his support play has disappeared.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ashton fumbled a forward pass from a quick tap on that play and there was another fumble in it as well. It was also play where Australia also were playing 14 men with Fardy down. It was hardly impressive stuff of an England 2002 backline vintage. It was an extremely flukey passage of play thanks to poor refereeing to win that 90 metres.

Who's saying it was impressive? Fact is we still had to work our way into the Asussie 22 and fumble or not, it hardly gave us an advantage. Infact his fumble slowed down our play and was detrimental. Yes we didn't get penalised (assuming it even went forward) but it's not like his action was in any way beneficial for us. If we are going to be picky, what about the knock on where Farrel would have been away with the intercept and the referee blew his whistle after he had started running down the pitch? Intercepts in that position often lead to tries and we were denied that and then you have the aussies playing half the game offside. To claim that somehow England didn't put the effort in or that the Aussies deserved the win is ludicrous. The Assies scored a try but it was no less lucky than ours. On a normal day that try would have been stopped. You can hardly ignore all the stuff the Aussies got away with whilst attacking anything and everything England did. I know you're Welsh but try to see past that.

 

[Folau Tank]

Good Game, but the issue with Stephen Moore and Owen Farrell was the worst decision and just because of that TRY AUSTRALIA LOST

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Who's saying it was impressive? Fact is we still had to work our way into the Asussie 22 and fumble or not, it hardly gave us an advantage. Infact his fumble slowed down our play and was detrimental. Yes we didn't get penalised (assuming it even went forward) but it's not like his action was in any way beneficial for us. If we are going to be picky, what about the knock on where Farrel would have been away with the intercept and the referee blew his whistle after he had started running down the pitch? Intercepts in that position often lead to tries and we were denied that and then you have the aussies playing half the game offside. To claim that somehow England didn't put the effort in or that the Aussies deserved the win is ludicrous. The Assies scored a try but it was no less lucky than ours. On a normal day that try would have been stopped. You can hardly ignore all the stuff the Aussies got away with whilst attacking anything and everything England did. I know you're Welsh but try to see past that.

36 missing a tackle isn't *luck*. The point is that twice in the movement which England scored from there were errors which weren't picked up on by the referee. Sure, England may have won regardless of those errors, but I think you're not giving the impact of those errors enough credit.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/dwyers-view-are-we-even-headed-in-the-right-direction/

Dwyer getting his knickers in a twist over the referee decisions on Saturday and Mako boring into Ben Alexander.

 

[Big Ewis]

Good Game, but the issue with Stephen Moore and Owen Farrell was the worst decision and just because of that TRY AUSTRALIA LOST

it's true Australia lost in great controversy, and exactly by that controversy's total: 7 points, the try converted....
But let me tell you what will happen. This is a mere Autumn test, not a series, not a tournament, and there are many more tests to come for Aus on that tour. History will have everyone forget about this, and ppl will just look at Australia's record that year and say: "oh boy, they showed heavy losses in TRC, and then even lost their first test of the European Tour !"

It's bs, it's unfair, Justice was elsewhere that day in London, but it is also a reality. Now let's just hope Australia can win a good number of those other 4 tests in the NH.

Personally, I think this test deserved a draw. None of the two teams were a class above the other, and both had advantages and big flaws. This really should've been a 13-13, or maybe a last second victory 16-13 to either team.

 

[Packman]

I enjoyed the match and the result obviously. We certainly got the rub of the green and George Clancy is fast becoming England's fav ref 1

the Owen try was very lucky. If the tables had been turned I'd have been miffed, but a friend of mine put a fair spin on it by saying that if the Aussies had scored it, they'd have no doubt taken it as well. So them's the breaks.2

England struggled to team up. they were 15 individuals and sometimes that looked pretty dire when we were attacking. Glad we have another match together before facing the Kiwis.

Aus, failed to click like they had vs NZ and the Pumas in their last couple of games. Thing is that this ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ethos may please the Campo Brigade, but it's papering over the same old cracks. Argentina made them look good. The Kiwis lap up loose games and don't care about letting in 3 tries, because they'll be enough space for them to score four. 3 I think Italy will be up for the challenge on Saturday. Argentina's complacency vs Australia could do Italy a few favours too. If the Azzurri work hard then you have to say they at least have a chance. Work hard, keep it structured, they have a shot.

looking ahead to England V Argentina.

The Pumas have a new coach and we all know what a shot in the arm that can give a team4 However having seen them play all through the rugby championship, you have to say England ought to win. The beauty of this game is that spirit and passion can overturn skill and resources. Argentina can draw on England lording it over their "3rd team" in June and use that to fire themselves up. I don't think the Pumas will lack for passion. It's up to England to fight fire with fire. We should win, but we have to turn up and approach the game the same way as South Africa would. No mercy, if Argentina want to take the field against us then we should meet them with seething lawful hostility.5

1, Not that George can be held responsible for the bits of good fortune that came our way. The mistakes were down to the Assistant ref and video ref.

2,Lets face it, there's a certain foot close to touch line during a match in Paris 2007 that didn't go our way so.... its all swings and roundabouts baby.

3, I'm pretty sure this is why the Kiwis were desperate for a NZ v Wales RWC final in 2011. I think the pay off of beating France in a tough final was bigger though, the nerves, followed by the ecstasy was so much fun to experience, but I'm waffling again.

4, Lancaster and England for a start!

5, Then buy 'em a pint and have a laugh afterwards! :buddies:

 

[Bada-Bing!]

it's true Australia lost in great controversy, and exactly by that controversy's total: 7 points, the try converted....
But let me tell you what will happen. This is a mere Autumn test, not a series, not a tournament, and there are many more tests to come for Aus on that tour. History will have everyone forget about this, and ppl will just look at Australia's record that year and say: "oh boy, they showed heavy losses in TRC, and then even lost their first test of the European Tour !"

It's bs, it's unfair, Justice was elsewhere that day in London, but it is also a reality. Now let's just hope Australia can win a good number of those other 4 tests in the NH.

Personally, I think this test deserved a draw. None of the two teams were a class above the other, and both had advantages and big flaws. This really should've been a 13-13, or maybe a last second victory 16-13 to either team.

My gut feeling is that this Australia team are running on empty emotionally and physically; it's been a long 5 months. I think they will beat Italy and squeak past Scotland and then lose to Ireland and Wales. 15 tests in one year is a hell of a lot and what with all the travelling to SA, Argentina and now Europe, mentally I just don't see more than two more wins left in them. Just my 2 pennies worth.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

it's true Australia lost in great controversy, and exactly by that controversy's total: 7 points, the try converted....
But let me tell you what will happen. This is a mere Autumn test, not a series, not a tournament, and there are many more tests to come for Aus on that tour. History will have everyone forget about this, and ppl will just look at Australia's record that year and say: "oh boy, they showed heavy losses in TRC, and then even lost their first test of the European Tour !"

It's bs, it's unfair, Justice was elsewhere that day in London, but it is also a reality. Now let's just hope Australia can win a good number of those other 4 tests in the NH.

Personally, I think this test deserved a draw. None of the two teams were a class above the other, and both had advantages and big flaws. This really should've been a 13-13, or maybe a last second victory 16-13 to either team.

Aus have had the rub of the green more often than not so don't feel too much pity for them.

 

[St George]

Aus have had the rub of the green more often than not so don't feel too much pity for them.

Ditto this.


I just love the whinging about both our tries, but sh1.te happens sometimes in rugby and unless the TMO has powers to call all bad decisions due to replays on tv etc....then its just tough luck.

The Kiwis still smart over a forward pass, the Lions over spear tackles etc. But in keeping with this fixture and the events leading up to Robshaws Try, then i recall a similar incident in the same fixture in 2011(?). The Aussies got a dubious lineout in Englands 22 and scored from the resulting play. I was furious and called foul but sh1.te happens. I think in comparing the two, the Aussies had a better chance to prevent a Try from Englands 22 than when England had to defend in their 22.

As for the 2nd Try....the TMO looked at it and ok'd it so there is no question of it being missed. People are just seeing what they want and not understanding the interpretations of the laws as per the officials.

But hey....carry on whinging. :bleh!:

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm surprised at some of the hysteria about how lucky England were. It seems that whenever England get a slice of luck, the whole world bears down upon TRF to protest . Initiated by the french under the banner of Big Ewis and followed by the rest . I'm sorry Big Ewis but you are usually the first to stamp your feet when anything goes right for England - it's almost a parody of anglo/french resentment!

Mike Browns' toes were in touch; but I'm not surprised that this was missed as it was close - those sorts of scenarios are often incorrectly officiated by the linesmen, which doesn't make it right, but to be fair a whole passage of good England play followed and on this front I'd completely echo rageranchers thoughts - you play on and from that point, the other team know they have to keep playing - to say that none of that phase of play deserved reward just because of toes on the line minutes earlier is absolute madness. It was a good piece of play in an otherwise dour game and i feel that alone deserves acknowledgement

Farrell try? Moore knew he had to drift across and should have done so earlier, rather than moving into Hartley, regardless of whether or not Hartley should have been there. Farrell spotted a mis-match and Moore was struggling to get there - in my opinion he could have done better and Farrell did well to take the chance.

Ultimately I'd be scrutinizing the incidents more if I felt that Australia played well enough to actively deserve the victory. As JDawg pointed out, Farrell should have been left to go for his intercept try but was called back. Farrell missed a load of kicks which on other days would have given England a 9 point cushion even without the try. Ultimately whilst England were poor in many facets, I don't believe Oz played well enough to be deserving of anything more from the game. Another thing is that they had plenty of time to react to Englands points scored in both tries. They didn't , and in fact if the game had continued it was England who looked like putting on the points. To say that the game should have been drawn seems a bit senseless. As ever Oz look dangerous periodically, but it's still their responsibility to put together a more complete team performance - don't penalise England for that!

The game was a non-event really - I hadn't even been drinking and nothing has really stuck in my mind from it - no memorable passages or anything at all.

The backline was poor. Twelvetrees disappointed but unlike some of the others I still know he has what it takes at this level. I don't feel the same about Tomkins, who was unexceptional and made a really poor attempt to tackle Folau by dabbing his face with his hands. Not a good showing - I'd go with Trinder but that's not to say Tomkins doesn't deserve another chance.

Ashton's time is up - nine lives and all that! Wade apparently had a cracker at the weekend. Apparently Lancaster gave Wade some things to work-on for a few games with his club - this would be fine/justifiable if England had a long waiting list of class wingers whose defences were flawless, in the way that New Zealand arguably do - but to be told to work on his defence and positioning when Ashton puts in showings like that takes the wee.
Yarde was fairly decent, nothing special - but I'd put that down to the side he was in - needs more time. In general, I really don't buy this idea of certain players being 'unproven' at this level - firstly, I believe that its usually obvious when a player has enough class to do well at international level, but secondly the idea of being proven at the level makes it defensible for a player to keep his place even after losing the form he had when first breaking into the squad. Yes, Wade hasn't actively proven himself against teams like South Africa and new Zealand, but at the same time Ashton isn't proving anything positive by missing tackles and being generally anonymous.

For me, Farrell wasn't great but still managed to exhibit some of the traits which do make him a valuable addition to England - his ability to for example, in a sextonesque way put in hits which his more mobile loose forwards can then ruck over to win turnover, is really invaluable to the way we play - with our pack of mobile, if unorthodox loose forwards who. I still prefer Burns and Flood but I think Farrell deserves more time with Dickson and the backline.

There are so many conflicting opinions about rugby; the Observer gave Cole a rating of 8 and Billy a 9 - - Billy was good but that's a high score! I'd like to see Wilson start the next two games in front of the existing lock partnership, or alternatively Cole paired up with Attwood - to see how they both do with the change in engine room.

Anyway, its disappointing that this autumn is unlikely to leave us knowing any more about where we're at. We were average against OZ, we should certainly be beating Argentina at home, and certainly should lose against New Zealand - standard state of affairs really - a shame we don't get a game against South Africa to really assess where we are, but that's how it goes...

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/vid.../lancaster-hints-he'll-stick-with-twlevetrees

Lancaster has basically said 36 will be retained.
Good.

Mentioned that Wilson played well, unprompted.
Possibly a hint?

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm surprised at some of the hysteria about how lucky England were. It seems that whenever England get a slice of luck, the whole world bears down upon TRF to protest . Initiated by the french under the banner of Big Ewis and followed by the rest . I'm sorry Big Ewis but you are usually the first to stamp your feet when anything goes right for England - it's almost a parody of anglo/french resentment

ohhhhhh you'd like that my friend ! You'd like to just put that label on me, and all your sorrows fade instantly and you are on top of this test of strength. I didn't say any of the things that other French user said, don't put me along with him, my sentiment on the outcome is my own, I don't subscribe to any other but my own. Had it been Australia scoring that try and getting those fine calls (Brown in touch within his own 22, among others) I'd say the exact same thing.
In your mind, there's such a caricature of the Frenchman looking for any pretext to criticize the English you've lost track of reality, that England won by exactly 7 points, the very total Farrell scored on that very controversial try. Does he go through if that guy wasn't standing there, retaining the Aussie defender physically and from any sight of the play ?? Nope. Farrell ain't exactly a Dan Carter to writhe through the curtain like that, mind you, and that kind of play I'll bet surprised the English folks more than any other before they saw the replay and understood what really happened. Like, "ohhh...THAT's how he got through, I thought that was weird the first time".

It's very cheap, and quick to use that label here. You remind me of minorities using the "race card" when there's nothing else to retort with. And you're conveniently forgetting about all the positive things I've said the past few months about England, too.
And I'm a Wallaby fan, so yes it's annoying to see these poor Aussies get another huge dose of hardship AGAIN this year...it's unfair, and I HATE injustice.

Of course for you, you're willing to legitimize that try and discard all the ruckus about obstruction and what not...it's a natural human reflex.

My gut feeling is that this Australia team are running on empty emotionally and physically; it's been a long 5 months. I think they will beat Italy and squeak past Scotland and then lose to Ireland and Wales. 15 tests in one year is a hell of a lot and what with all the travelling to SA, Argentina and now Europe, mentally I just don't see more than two more wins left in them. Just my 2 pennies worth.

I agree.

Aus have had the rub of the green more often than not so don't feel too much pity for them.

ah, really ? hmm, interesting. I'd have liked to see S.A. in that exact same case in stead of Australia playing England, and reading your reactions on this forum. Something tells me, it's just a little something though....but it tells me your reaction may have been slightly different.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

ohhhhhh you'd like that my friend ! You'd like to just put that label on me, and all your sorrows fade instantly and you are on top of this test of strength. I didn't say any of the things that other French user said, don't put me along with him, my sentiment on the outcome is my own, I don't subscribe to any other but my own. Had it been Australia scoring that try and getting those fine calls (Brown in touch within his own 22, among others) I'd say the exact same thing.
In your mind, there's such a caricature of the Frenchman looking for any pretext to criticize the English you've lost track of reality, that England won by exactly 7 points, the very total Farrell scored on that very controversial try. Does he go through if that guy wasn't standing there, retaining the Aussie defender physically and from any sight of the play ?? Nope. Farrell ain't exactly a Dan Carter to writhe through the curtain like that, mind you, and that kind of play I'll bet surprised the English folks more than any other before they saw the replay and understood what really happened. Like, "ohhh...THAT's how he got through, I thought that was weird the first time".

It's very cheap, and quick to use that label here. You remind me of minorities using the "race card" when there's nothing else to retort with. And you're conveniently forgetting about all the positive things I've said the past few months about England, too.
And I'm a Wallaby fan, so yes it's annoying to see these poor Aussies get another huge dose of hardship AGAIN this year...it's unfair, and I HATE injustice.

Of course for you, you're willing to legitimize that try and discard all the ruckus about obstruction and what not...it's a natural human reflex.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous here about your reasons for being discontent; Regardless of the actual incidents, I have noticed that you are typically rather pleased at English defeats (e.g Wales game) and will support any other side against England as far as I've seen(you are hardly alone in this). Your annoyance at the referee decisions on saturday isn't purely because you want justice done, but its at least in part because England were involved. Don't get me wrong, you are perfectly entitled to not like England as a side, and not many non-english people do. But it's the extension of this which I'm bemoaning - whereby, in reading comments on a forum like this, you'd almost think we were still in war-torn 13th century europe. Both sorts of 'incident's as we saw on saturday are the like of which occur regularly - but which don't inspire the same degree of feeling because it doesn't involve England.

I'm simply noting in this case that there are almost 3 consecutive frenchmen foaming at the mouth about how unjust the decisions were in the game! And the very point I'm making is that I find it frustrating that England are denied, from neutrals, the sort of empathy(for the fact that we are a normal rugby team like any other) that any other nation is usually granted in the sporting contest. I myself love france and the French, and therefore find it rather disappointing and confusing that lots of the French on the board still love to see England lose, when I myself love to see France do well! There is simply no denying that England are the team people love to hate - and while that's all in good spirit mostly, it gets tiresome from time to time...

 

[Peat]

Ewis, Invictus et all are not the only ones pointing out we got pretty lucky with the ref there. We did. Both of our tries came with pretty controversial reffing decisions attached. I'm not saying Australia were robbed. This is rugby, if you didn't play well enough to take the ref out of the equation blame yourself and no one else. But saying that people only come out with complaints about poor reffing when the English are benefit is crap. Comments about vague things that went against England are just unedifying. We got lucky, we still did the hard work for the win anyway.

Bluntly, the debate is very tedious in that it masks just how poorly both teams' backlines performed. Yes, both teams. The Aussies could hold their heads up higher - but Genia was possibly the worse player on the pitch, Cummins made a couple of gaffes and Folau's confidence in his own running ability was sorely misplaced at times. Cooper was hit and miss and Toomua missed a criminal amount of kicks to touch. A better, more confident Wallabies side would have won that.

 

[Big Ewis]

Oh, well let me stop you right there then if my first message wasn't enough. Take my word for it, as you know I'm not the kind to hide....well, anything at all ! - I don't nearly hate England, and I don't even dislike them as much as some French will. I don't have the systematic dislike against England. My claims were in deed honest up there, and because I'm a Wallaby fan (and have been since I started watching the sport) it was annoying to watch, again, especially given the complexion of their year, what a horrible disappointment for a team that some years ago still managed to put 40 points past NH teams.

I'll go deeper if you want to know, about England. I don't like conservatism in sports. I like to see a team with "pure" intentions to score, as I've exposed on a thread some months ago.
England will look for the team to make mistakes, will play possession often because they have no confidence in their full field attacking ability, will watch out above all for their discipline as they want to be by all means possible on the receiving end of penalties...it's just everything I don't like in Rugby. Some of the rare times I enjoyed watching England was the 2002-03 era, because of Cohen, a prime Wilko and some guys who could bring some excitement to the game.

And England as a country, and its people: I have some animosity deep in me against the English, but contain it. You won't see me acting out of bias. I consciously make an effort to like England and look at the positive sides. I concede with no complex for example that England have qualities we don't have in France, or do some things better.
It's just, in my personality altogether, there aren't many things that have ever gotten me close to England. It's a question of taste.

And I wish I could cheer for England, but there aren't many teams I'd rather see England win against. I don't like seeing England win against good teams because as the saying goes "England are better losers than winners" as in typically you guys will be very humble in defeat, and lucid and fair but when you win it's some of the most awful bragging to have to go through, I tell you from experience, not prejudice or word of mouth.

And I don't care about why others 'hate' England. I don't hate England, and the things I dislike about England are founded. And you should stop using that yourself as a template-argument, that if we ever criticize England it's because "oh, the whole world hates us anyways", that gets tiresome.

It's all there. And I'm telling you 'it' as it is, no bs, no concessions.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And I wish I could cheer for England, but there aren't many teams I'd rather see England win against. I don't like seeing England win against good teams because as the saying goes "England are better losers than winners" as in typically you guys will be very humble in defeat, and lucid and fair but when you win it's some of the most awful bragging to have to go through, I tell you from experience, not prejudice or word of mouth.

I have to disagree. In football maybe but in rugby there is very little bragging. In our media maybe but generally England aren't braggers. When you consider that some sides go into facing England with quite a lot of venom, far more than mere friendly rivalry, sometimes it is nice to let them know just who won. After all the majority of the time England lose we have it shoved in our faces. You only have to look at the England rugby facebook page to find (mostly) Welsh for example coming on with the sole aim of slagging off England. You don't see that anywhere near as regularly on the pages for other nations by England fans.

 

[Big Ewis]

I have to disagree. In football maybe but in rugby there is very little bragging. In our media maybe but generally England aren't braggers. When you consider that some sides go into facing England with quite a lot of venom, far more than mere friendly rivalry, sometimes it is nice to let them know just who won. After all the majority of the time England lose we have it shoved in our faces. You only have to look at the England rugby facebook page to find (mostly) Welsh for example coming on with the sole aim of slagging off England. You don't see that anywhere near as regularly on the pages for other nations by England fans.

I'll respectfully take your word for it and keep it in a corner of my mind, but everything else that I've seen, read and heard cannot be nullified.

And about the Welsh victory last 6N, I've explained my reaction many times: England were so lack-luster that tournament, the very idea that they would win the Grand Slam, along with fans on this forum and elsewhere going wild as to how England are building a team that will reach 2003 potential, and they look really really good for the RWC, got me sick of Rugby as a whole, or at least NH, and specifically England. A team that merely collects 3 pointers and calmly converts them doesn't earn my respect. I was so happy Wales took both the GS and 6N altogether away from England because of that mostly, and then the fact that Wales specifically would pound England in every possible sector of the match was something I liked to watch because of my Frenchness too, I won't hide that.
But tbh, had England been a team that scored tries, that showed some kind of creativity in any way...I'd say they're a beautiful team and deserve the 6N and GS. But it wasn't the case, it was honestly flat-out boring to watch England against France, Italy, Ireland and Wales. Scotland got it bad on opening weekend, England looked good.

I'm telling you, last March I was starting to doubt whether or not I really loved Rugby because of the shyttiness of play, the disappointment in France, and a team like England about to win it all.

 

[Chikwa]

I have to disagree. In football maybe but in rugby there is very little bragging. In our media maybe but generally England aren't braggers. When you consider that some sides go into facing England with quite a lot of venom, far more than mere friendly rivalry, sometimes it is nice to let them know just who won. After all the majority of the time England lose we have it shoved in our faces. You only have to look at the England rugby facebook page to find (mostly) Welsh for example coming on with the sole aim of slagging off England. You don't see that anywhere near as regularly on the pages for other nations by England fans.

Passionate lads ! Truly the English are the benchmark in many sports ,cricket rugby football ,everybody loves to beat them .To their immense credit they are competitive in most of the major sports.
Back to rugby ,they probably deserved this victory because of their attitude .I believe on Rugby more than other sports you can take the ref out the game.In this particular game the red was not obviously bias !