[EOYT] Ireland vs New Zealand 24/11/13

[Chikwa]

Wow what a finish! What a game! I think that's one of the best wins I've ever seen, given that NZ had to score from 80 odd metres out with nothing left on the clock. I feel for the Irish, nobody wants to lose, but to lose when you had a 19 point start, and leading by 5 points with time almost up, that must really suck. Whoever it was on the Irish side that kicked the ball away at the end must now be kicking themselves - after doing such a good job of retaining possession and winding down the clock it was arguably the worst decision of the game, given the context. Likewise, Sexton must be feeling pretty down, given he had a relatively easy kick to put the game out of reach (of course that's not taking into consideration the mental pressure, but surely it's easier to kick a penalty to secure the win than it is to kick a conversion to attain that win).

Whilst the Irish won't be congratulating themselves for their spirited effort, they deserve a lot of credit for really taking it to one of the best teams of the era. Their forwards were immense, and they took all the opportunities they were presented with in the first half. A few comments have been made about the refereeing of the breakdown, but I don't think it was particularly bad. There were few obvious mistakes from Owens, with regards to not releasing etc., but not more than in other games, and certainly no game breaking calls (though I was mighty worried when they were reviewing that final NZ score, even though it was a clear try). It's not often Read goes missing in a test match, but that happened today. McCaw was subdued too, and Faumuina, who is normally a brilliant ball carrier, was relatively quiet too. I think that's one of the main reasons Ireland did so well, they stopped NZ from getting over the game line considerably better than NZ did in return. It will be very interesting to see how Ireland go in the Six Nations, the Northern Hemisphere nations are known for being a bit inconsistent, but maybe Schmidt can take Ireland to new heights and maintain high standards at least until the World Cup.

The All Blacks were lucky to escape, but they also played until the last minute, which is something Ireland failed to do. I thought our front row wasa bit disappointing today, I've certainly seen nothing from Crockett this year to think he's a long term option (especially given his age). Faumuina was, as I mentioned, a bit disappointing too. That being said, it was wonderful to see secure scrums for once, I'm sure the solid pitch helped. Coles added some good impact when he came on, I'm not worried about him starting big matches in the future (though I don't necessarily think he'll ever achieve any great heights). Whitelock was pretty solid, especially in the tight work. Retallick was ok, he made a bad decision or two and was a bit less accurate than usual, but for a young guy he's played an exceptional amount of rugby this year.

Luatua had a good game in the loose, he looked hungry, but he still needs to work on the tight stuff a bit more. He should definitely focus on hitting breakdowns next season, because he's a big guy and could do a lot of damage. I think McCaw's career is coming to an end, to be perfectly honest, I don't think he is as influential as he has been in the past, and I don't think a shift away from the open side will save his career either. Yes, he's a brilliant captain, but Read has served a good apprenticeship, and Cane is too promising a player to not be getting game time. If Cane played every game from now until the World Cup, I'd imagine he'd certainly be a better selection come 2015 than McCaw will be.

I don't think Smith had a very good game, but what was refreshing was that he did very few box kicks. The Irish monstered the rucks, and I think in a game like this Kerr-Barlow would be a better option. Smith is great in busy running games, where quick ball is a huge advantage, whereas Kerr-Barlow is more handy if the game is a bit slower, and the opposition forwards have the upper hand. It's a shame Perenara didn't get a run. I think that in the future I'd like to see Smith or Kerr-Barlow starting, with Perenara coming off the bench around the sixty minute mark.

Cruden had an up and down performance. He set up the first try brilliantly and kicked that important conversion (he also set Nonu up for what could've been the game winning break, but silly Ma'a fumbled the ball), but he also missed a couple of important tackles and failed to find touch with a penalty kick (he borrowed that flaw from Barrett), and sometimes he looked to be just shovelling the ball along (again I think this was partially an issue with Smith clearing the ball quickly when there weren't really any options out wide). That being said, he also made some great jinking runs. I think he will be better for every match he plays, and like McCaw I think Carter's time may be up as the number one flyhalf. I think he is still the best in the world, but I think he's too fragile to invest so many games in when we need Cruden to improve as much as possible before the World Cup. I'd probably have Barrett on the bench too, to ensure he gets a lot of game time. He really is a super sub, his hard running knocked a few tired Irish players over, and his performance against the Springboks in NZ this year was great too. He can still look a bit manic at times, but he'll settle down with a bit more game time.

Nonu seems to be a very 50/50 player now. One minute you'll be screaming at him for making a stupid error (see: kick), and the next you'll be cheering him on as he makes a match winning run or pass. I hope SBW returns strongly, because I'm not confident enough that Nonu isn't going to ruin our chances of winning in 2015 due to some brain meltdown. Ben Smith gets better with every game at centre, but I can't over exaggerate how excited I was when he was moved back to fullback (even if it was short lived). For me the first choice back three when Conrad returns would be Savea, Smith and Jane, with Dagg on the bench. Of course, this could all change if Dagg finds some form next season. Jane was very quiet today, play didn't really fall his way much. I thought Crotty was a mixed bag off the bench, he score the match winning try (and intelligently got as close to the posts as he could!) but I thought his defence wasn't as secure as it usually is. Given he's more of a dependable player than an X-factor player, this was a bit disappointing. That being said, I don't think he was any worse than Nonu or Dagg today.

What a way to finish the year for the All Blacks. I'm really looking forward to seeing a mock All Blacks lineup run out in Barbarians hoops soon, because guys like Perenara, Bird and Whitelock need some high(ish) quality opposition to test themselves. Hard luck Ireland, each year you're getting close, if it's any consolation.

It was probably too risky bringing on Perenara for this game.McCaw was excellent In defence, He doesn't attack the space enough with ball in hand.Watch his defensive work it is invaluable.He is still miles ahead of Sam cane ,Sam cane is still not a regular starter for the chiefs.I thought Nonu was one of the few players going over the advantage line but he had no support.Israel Dagg was disappointing .
Considering we have won 14 out of 14 I would rather attribute the victory to our mental fortitude than Ireland's luck.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Special mention to Nigel Owens who I thought had another superb game after the one he reffed between SA and NZ.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'll be interested to see what the ruling is regarding his decision to award a penalty to Rob Kearney for being taken in the air, from a grubber kick, that had connected to the ground?

 

[Jack Reacher]

Special mention to Nigel Owens who I thought had another superb game after the one he ruffed between SA and NZ.[/QUOTE
Before you start with 'NZ's moaning about the ref', hear me out. Owens allowed a lot of leniencies at ruck time which allowed Ireland to have the start they did. NZ teams have to be so cautious at ruck time as players like Hore, McCaw and now Read are pre-marked for penalties. Joubert was the opposite last week and it took us a while to settle there. Its strange considering the same refs officiate TRC matches but NZ didn't have the same issues during that series...heres the moan however, NH teams play so negatively it affects the game for both teams. Look how well the new scrum laws worked in Super Rugby and TRC, no problems, no resets, no penalties - as soon as NH teams develop them to suit it makes a mockery of it.
Once we get the refs interpretations right NZ start playing, take away the lucky intercept and Ireland didn't really trouble us at all for the remaining 65 minutes of the game, reading back over the threads you can understand all the emotive comments but watch the match again and NZ did play well....just left it very late.

 

[nickdnz]

Before you start with 'NZ's moaning about the ref', hear me out. Owens allowed a lot of leniencies at ruck time which allowed Ireland to have the start they did. NZ teams have to be so cautious at ruck time as players like Hore, McCaw and now Read are pre-marked for penalties. Joubert was the opposite last week and it took us a while to settle there. Its strange considering the same refs officiate TRC matches but NZ didn't have the same issues during that series...heres the moan however, NH teams play so negatively it affects the game for both teams. Look how well the new scrum laws worked in Super Rugby and TRC, no problems, no resets, no penalties - as soon as NH teams develop them to suit it makes a mockery of it.
Once we get the refs interpretations right NZ start playing, take away the lucky intercept and Ireland didn't really trouble us at all for the remaining 65 minutes of the game, reading back over the threads you can understand all the emotive comments but watch the match again and NZ did play well....just left it very late.

I don't think it has anything to do with the way the teams played. The scrums during TRC were pretty darn problematic for the most part, and I'd say the scrums in this match were actually very fairly officiated.

There does seem to be a problem with the ABs adapting to rule interpretations. Against England and Ireland we see both of them often hitting the ruck with a huge amount of force, go off their feet and even after that occasionally get in the way of the ball. The breakdowns have been generally very messy, but only for New Zealand. Something about the confidence England and Ireland have been doing it over the last two games makes me think it is an accepted part of the game - and to be fair it provided Ireland and England with quick ball so maybe it's not the end of the world if that's the case. But I do think New Zealand have been very hesitant in this area. Remembering Joubert is a SH referee and Owen is a NH referee - I have no explanation for why this is. I will say Owen's was reasonably consistent the entire game which is the big one, however unlike many people there were occasions where I was thinking 'how the ***** did he come to that conclusion?!' - not just when it favoured Ireland.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I'd be extremely upset if I were Irish. Not proud at all. The partial score in outside of the first 20 minutes was 24-3 to the ABs! They butchered a 19-point advantage!
Sexton's miss is just something that might happen to anyone. Poor execution, but taking the points was obviously the right thing to do.
But what about the fact that Ireland dominated the breakdown and still could not get good possession in he entire second half.
And what about Murray's box-kick with three minutes left! Then Ireland manage to get possession back, surely they'll keep it tight for the remaining two minutes... but no, Murray decides to kick a touchfinder, which was flawlessly executed, but that gave possession back to New Zealand for the last minutes. And we all know what New Zealand can do.

It must be frustrating to be SOB, make 20-odd tackles, win so many turnovers, and then see your 9 or your 10 kicking it away. And I feel for O'Driscoll. We will all remember how good he was, but the numbers in his career will look rather mediocre, having lost 2 Lions series (I'm not counting 2005) and having been dropped for the decider of the third one; collecting a single Grand Slam and having an overwhelmingly negative record against SH nations. He's largely responsible for Ireland's revival, I think he deserved better.


And what to say about the ABs? Cruden is some player, and I think they really missed Retallick. Also, I'm becoming a big fan of A. Smith. He's one of the few SH who passes straight from the ground, without swinging the ball back before the pass. The way we were told it was done when we were kids.

 

[Icemn]

Had a dream last night, that this game ended 24-23 to Ireland...guess that's how I knew it was a dream.

wow... considering you had this dream on the days before the game...

 

[Big Ewis]

Nigel Owens is a real-life hobbit. I'm sure he's got hairy feet, I'm just sure of it.

 

[Packman]

Game of the Year!!!!! The Irish Maul will have put a wide grin on any forward's face. it was awesome! If only they'd gone to the corner again instead of going to the three points. Hindsight is 20x20 though eh.

The How To Beat The All Blacks Coaching manual hasn't really changed that much for over a decade, This autumn though, teams took it off the shelf, blew off the dust and actually read the bloody thing. Teams have tested their pack this autumn and fault lines have been revealed. In rugby attack is always the best defense, its about imposing yourself and Ireland did that for 40 minutes but were too respectful in the 2nd. They had to go out on that pitch determined to grind the All blacks into the dirt and score, score and score again, no mercy, no reprieve. So what did they do? They took their boot off NZ's throat. They should of pushed down and broken that team's neck.

Ireland will be hurting. It's going to haunt Ireland. Look out for the re-match. They really did take a step forward. You need losses that this to add steel to your team. Wembley '99 anyone? Ireland KNOW they should have put the kiwis away yesterday. We all know it. New Zealand know it. Its like the 2001 Lions Tour to Oz, We knew who was the best and it wasn't the Aussies, That sort of thing drives you every time to take to the pitch. I'm haunted by yesterday's 2nd half and I'm not even Irish!!!! Look out six nations. After a couple of years of severe under-achievement the Irish have woken up and they will be looking to take their frustration out on any poor dumb chump who's daft enough to stand in front of them. My blood is up thinking about the confrontations to come. This six nations is going to be a furnace of national pride and passion. The old foes are going to war. Ireland at Twickenham? BRING IT!!!!! :rahh:

 

[Peat]

The centres weren't outstanding. Nonu's stats according to scrum.com are actually pretty outstanding. He's credited with 4 turnovers, three defenders beaten with one clean break - only one kick (which is a nice change) and the similar numer of runs as passes with 13 passes and 12 runs.

Point of information. The turnovers stat on scrum.com stands for the player turning his own ball over, not effective a turnover on opposition ball.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Before you start with 'NZ's moaning about the ref', hear me out. Owens allowed a lot of leniencies at ruck time which allowed Ireland to have the start they did. NZ teams have to be so cautious at ruck time as players like Hore, McCaw and now Read are pre-marked for penalties. Joubert was the opposite last week and it took us a while to settle there. Its strange considering the same refs officiate TRC matches but NZ didn't have the same issues during that series...heres the moan however, NH teams play so negatively it affects the game for both teams. Look how well the new scrum laws worked in Super Rugby and TRC, no problems, no resets, no penalties - as soon as NH teams develop them to suit it makes a mockery of it.
Once we get the refs interpretations right NZ start playing, take away the lucky intercept and Ireland didn't really trouble us at all for the remaining 65 minutes of the game, reading back over the threads you can understand all the emotive comments but watch the match again and NZ did play well....just left it very late.

Typical ABs fan; always moaning about the ref.;0).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Game of the Year!!!!!

Nah SA v NZ at Ellis Park for sure was game of the year and probably the decade so far. 5 tries to 4 in a game between the no. 1 and 2 ranked international teams. No disrespect to Ireland.

 

[Big Ewis]

Nah SA v NZ at Ellis Park for sure was game of the year and probably the decade so far. 5 tries to 4 in a game between the no. 1 and 2 ranked international teams. No disrespect to Ireland.

Disagreed. Wasn't nearly as suspenseful or intense. Things like Read jogging in a try while with 14 men...an 11pt victory for the visitors...

This is easily the game of the year. Shocking, intense, redeeming. Many good tries too, fantastic passages of play from both sides, NZ were playing very well themselves, and inspired on attack. They just got stopped by a fantastic Irish defense. Highly entertaining, and what an unbelievable, unbelievable ending.
Easily the year's best, easily...

you're just piissed cause Ireland managed a much, much better match than England did against the All-Blacks, just admit it, go on.

 

[Peat]

Interesting read on the defence at the death - http://www.thescore.ie/analysis-ireland-all-blacks-1191120-Nov2013/

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Disagreed. Wasn't nearly as suspenseful or intense. Things like Read jogging in a try while with 14 men...an 11pt victory for the visitors...

This is easily the game of the year. Shocking, intense, redeeming. Many good tries too, fantastic passages of play from both sides, NZ were playing very well themselves, and inspired on attack. They just got stopped by a fantastic Irish defense. Highly entertaining, and what an unbelievable, unbelievable ending.
Easily the year's best, easily...

you're just piissed cause Ireland managed a much, much better match than England did against the All-Blacks, just admit it, go on.

Ireland could not sustain their first half performance in the 2nd half; it was a massive defensive effort, but they did not score a point in the 2nd half. Anyway it's just my opinion, as the Ellis Park match was between 1 v 2 and the quality was sustained pretty much by both sides for 80 minutes in terms of both sides scoring points.

England have nothing to do with my opinion of which was the match of the year.

 

[Dunney7]

I think it was an incredible performance by Ireland as they finally brought the intensity needed to beat the Southern Hemisphere teams but I am quite worried by the collapse in concentration at the end which meant they fell short but lots of positives to be gained. I am not sure the players themselves expected the scoreline so they were playing in a completely new environment with enormous pressure towards the end. What Ireland need to do is remember this performance because I believe it will be NZ in the 2015 quarter finals and I really think that if you can bring ferocity to your game and rattle the All Blacks in the tackle and breakdown they can be beaten.

I don't want to say the result has blown the 6 Nations wide open as Ireland have to travel to Paris and Twickenham but it should add to the entertainment either way. If the new coach can keep this intensity up and the provinces perform in Europe this season then there is no reason to write Ireland off.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Nah SA v NZ at Ellis Park for sure was game of the year and probably the decade so far. 5 tries to 4 in a game between the no. 1 and 2 ranked international teams. No disrespect to Ireland.

I have to agree, South Africa are a better team by ireland with some distance and at home on the high veldt they are a gear better again with their massive vocal crowd to lift them.
That was a critical game as well because if the Bokke could have scored a win with a bonus try and kept the All Blacks without a bonus point they would have won the whole RC competition.
A big ask but they are a mighty strong team and with home advantage against the All blacks who had spent two weeks travelling around the world it was not outside of their prodigious capabilities.
The intensity of that game was a notch higher than the Irish game and for my money that was THE best game of rugby I have ever witnessed.

The Ireland game was a cracking game because Ireland were the underdogs and they came out of the blocks like Usain Bolt and scored a point a minute for the first 19 minutes. But... it was a friendly with no silverware attached.
Yeah a big game for Ireland because it's a chance to break their duck against the AB's and a chance for the AB's to go through a calendar year winning every game on offer. but... no silverware.
A fine game and all credit to Ireland for producing their best performance in living memory.
This was a second place this year though compared to the monumental game in Jo'burg. The Irish flagged in the 2nd half and they were clawed back and then passed at the last post.
The Bokke in comparison came from behind to take the lead and then came from behind again to score 4 tries against the All blacks and take the lead again before the AB's took the game out in the last few minutes. Nothing so far, not the world cup finals, nothing compares to that game in Jo'burg and that is why the Bokke are our oldest and most respected enemy.
They know rugby like we know rugby and when those two teams go toe to toe there's nothing better.

Personally I'm really happy the Boks are so strong at the moment, they are exciting to watch, Du Plessis is the real beast, Albertz is a pocket battleship, Du Preez is under rated for his sly cunning like a fox, Fourie is world class and a champion of the thinking mans rugby, JDV's is in the form of his life as captain, Habana is back to his best and the new kids, Le Roux and Lambie are seriously talented footballers... a strong Bokke team is great for world rugby and perfect for the ultimate rivalry.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ugh, I still feel terrible. For all those saying Ireland deserved to win I have to agree with all those saying they didn't. The games made up of tight margins and had Johnny Cash made his kick, Devon Toner not given away that stupid penalty, we held them out at the end or gone for a drop goal with 30 seconds on the clock on their 22 we'd have deserved it, one of those four things and we'd have beaten New Zealand. As it happened we didn't! New Zealand scored 2 very well worked tries in the second half and we gifted them the aforementioned penalty, they did what they needed to do to win and we did not so therefore they deserved the win.

To answer the New Zealanders claims of Nigel Owens giving Ireland the advantage I'd like to point out the collapsed maul on New Zealand's 5m line where Ireland received just a penalty, that is a yellow card offence for me considering Ireland had mauled from around the 22, I'm not giving this as a reason that Ireland should have won the game but rather that the referee wasn't only wrong at times against New Zealand but also against Ireland.

All in all it was a bloody good performance and ZeFrenchy there is no reason that we cannot be both proud and disappointed, we put in our best performance against the All Blacks for 40 years and the mistakes that lost us the game will be learnt from and I firmly believe that by the time Joe Schmidt leaves the Ireland set up "Beating the All Blacks" will be ticked off the bucket list. I don't want to go into the intricacies of the game because it would be too painful but Irish rugby is in a good state, the players will push on from this and winning the 6nations and hopefully a Grand Slam must be achieved by this group of players if we want to challenge in the World Cup. It is extremely disappointing but I like to think it's encouraging that we can put this in the bracket of "should have" games against the All Blacks against the All Blacks along with 1973 and not in the brackets of "could have" or "Never to be spoken of again"!!!

And anyway if there's one thing I know for certain nobody beats Ireland 23 times in a row!!!


Edit: Sorry I just saw Jones Boy's comment, I'm not saying that this game was better than the Ireland game because personally it was horrible but to call it just a friendly with no silverware attached is ludicrous! First of all we don't have international Friendlies in rugby that's for soccer and this game was about two teams trying to achieve much more than win a trophy. Had Ireland won 2013 would always be remembered as the year we beat the All Blacks for the first time, the mediocre performances of the rest of the year would be forgotten and had New Zealand lost 2013 would have been remembered as the year they won the Rugby Championship.... again and not the year where the best team (I left out rugby on purpose) won every single one of their games in a calendar years. To call that game a friendly is insulting to players, fans and rugby in general.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Yeah Cmac, you wanna go back and have a look at that collapsed maul on the AB 5 metre line, slow it down and look at the middle and the bottom, and you will see a green jersey at the bottom of the maul doing his level best to pull the maul down and garner the penalty for his team. Fair play he got away with it too, much like Kearney jumping in the air to catcha grubber kick after it HAD BOUNCED TWICE LOl, and then jumping into the tackler.
Some funny things happen in rugby but it's all part of the rich tapestry we love.
Check this out, Irelands no. 17, the replacement Jack McGrath, has a hold of a black jersey and he is not supporting his own weight but tugging down to the ground to stop the maul and Owens missed it, see it here on 1:24;45 of this and check the replay, it's as plain as day and Owen missed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985d5nBQjOE&list=TLyI2UtGNWgfv2xaOSNEbC1uLOCljj7Y5B
Sexton gets the penalty from Ireland pulling down the maul.
Hey, smart play but foiled by Sextons nerves on the kick.

I have to say at the end of the game there was a section of the crowd that was very unpleasant, booing the AB try in the last minute, chanting forward forward to try to convince the officials to rule out a beautiful try and then booing Cruden as he was kicking the conversion and then booing after he got the kick.
Thats pretty distasteful.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah Cmac, you wanna go back and have a look at that collapsed maul on the AB 5 metre line, slow it down and look at the middle and the bottom, and you will see a green jersey at the bottom of the maul doing his level best to pull the maul down and garner the penalty for his team. Fair play he got away with it too, much like Kearney jumping in the air to catcha grubber kick LOl, and then jumping into the tackler.
Some funny things happen in rugby but it's all part of the rich tapestry we love.
Check this out, Irelands no. 17 has a hold of a black jersey and he is not supporting his own weight but tugging down to the ground to stop the maul and Owens missed it, see it here on 1:24;45 of this and check the replay, it's as plain as day and Owen missed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=985d5nBQjOE&list=TLyI2UtGNWgfv2xaOSNEbC1uLOCljj7Y5B
Sexton gets the penalty from Ireland pulling down the maul.
Hey, smart play but foiled by Sextons nerves on the kick.

You can, before the replay, see that Reid, brilliantly, breaks McGrath's bind and kind of drives him into the ground, different interpretation from different angles, there was no point to try and win a penalty there either that pack would have firmly believed they were going all the way but that wasn't the point of the comment. Nigel Owens, rightly or wrongly, gave a penalty for collapsing a maul where Ireland had a very good opportunity to score a try but didn't give a yellow card, that is lenient refereeing, that is improving New Zealand's chances and that shows that unlike what SOME users are saying he wasn't giving Ireland any advantage