[EOYT] Ireland vs New Zealand 24/11/13

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by Big Ewis, Nov 19, 2013.

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  1. ruggabee

    ruggabee Bench Player

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    With his pace disappearing people have argued that what he brings to the team is his defence and leadership. However, I agree with you that he has definitely been found wanting even when it comes to his current strengths. I don't know if that's down to his lack of judgement for when to shoot forward (unlikely considering the amount of experience he has) or because he gets gassed on the outside. Personally I think his time has come and gone. He was a great but his body can't support that title any more. Unfortunately there are few players who can replace him. I've been a massive supporter of Cave replacing him but he doesn't seem to be in Schmidt's or more appropriately Kidney's plans, also some think he is too old. I'd argue that he isn't with guys like Conrad Smith slotting in comfortably when Umaga moved to 2nd five eighth and then retired. But of course there will be the argument that they are the ABs so they can do that kind of stuff. Outside of him we have Olding but he is injured and even if he was fit I'd be very surprised if the Irish management through him in against the ABs. Big step up from a Ravens game. Henshaw simply strikes me as a big guy who can play a bit of rugby but he won't be good enough if we want to compete with the top 3. I think Ireland need to take a look at how the dominant countries approach their teams off field. I think Ireland are too conservative and are very regimental in that they should develop through the academy before making a mark in the pro game. By doing that I think we miss that enthusiasm and spark that comes with a young player.

    Go Ireland!!!
     
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  3. UlsterRugby2012

    UlsterRugby2012 First XV

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    Do you really not find it at all odd that there is 17 Leinster players?
    Toner, D'arcy, D.Kearney, McLaughlin, Boss, you could even argue BOD and Fitzgerald on form - they all deserve a place?


    It's not the fact that there's so many Leinster players, if they were genuinely the best players in those positions then fine. But they aren't, and that's what annoys me.
     
  4. ruggabee

    ruggabee Bench Player

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    There isn't really anyone else. Munster don't have guys in those positions that are better. Neither do Connacht. Ulster would if they weren't injured bar Tuohy (very hard done by), Marshall (Schmidt gave an explanation and he most likely will be ahead of D'arcy come the six nations) and Cave (he had very little chance).
     
  5. big ginger 8

    big ginger 8 International

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    No I don't, when you look at it logically it quite clear what is happening. Schmidt has been chucked in with three tough matches where he has to win. He doesn't have the time on the pitch with players he's used to. Leinster are used to his patterns they can slot in easier. Give him some time not three matches I'd expect by the 6N or Summer Tour at the latest the squad will be different.

    Going through the players you've listed for most of them there's a good argument.

    Toner: You clearly want to see Tuohy, so did most people but do you know who's been the second best lock in Ireland this year? Toner so yeah he deserves a spot. Also has the hands that Schmidt likes.

    D'arcy: Are second best 12. Also has 75 caps makes sense to play him with the rookie. Also with BO'D struggling with fitness playing him with someone who he has an intuitive understanding with him. I'd pick Marshall but it's a much more marginal call than you think. Despite your laughs D'arcy is a better defender than Marshall and his groundwork will be very important.

    Kearney: I was surprised at his intial inclusion but he took his only chance so far. Also don't forget Zebo and Gilroy are both injured and Fitzgerald was just coming back from injury. I like Trimble, I think he's a very honest player but there's a reason he's not as beloved around the country as he is up north. Also as I said above he's not really suited for international or Schmidt rugby.

    McLaughlin: He wouldn't be in the squad if not for injury. Henderson and Henry would both be ahead of him. With our starting backrow out of Coughlan, Wilson and McLaughlin McLaughlin is a pretty clear choice as he's the best 6.

    Boss: He hasn't even played a minute yet! He in very good form going into the series. I was a bit ****** off at Marmion not making the squad, but there are good reasons for not doing it this earlier.

    BO'D: Who'd you start ahead of him? Cave? He's a very intelligent player but he doesn't bring the overall effect that BO'D does and I'm don't think he'd offer more. People are very quick to jump on BO'D's back unfortunately. He shouldn't be immune from criticism but some are going ott. It's not so long ago we were moaning (with good reason) about him being dropped in Australia. He's played three matches this season two not fully fit. The other he was the best player on the pitch. The Samoa match was mixed but he still showed some brilliance the third was pretty ****e and he got embarassed. He's not the sort to allow that to happen two weeks in a row.

    Fitzgerald: When he's been on the pitch as a winger he's looked brilliant. He's the best defensive winger in Ireland and the perfect Schmidt winger.


    So please give Schmidt some proper time or at least tell me of these players who are clearly so much better that they would make a proper unarguable tangible difference.
     
  6. snoopy snoopy dog dog

    snoopy snoopy dog dog First XV

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    Eddie O'Sullivan on Luke Marshall being dropped:
    I wonder if he used the same logic every time he scapegoated Geordan Murphy?
     
  7. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    Not enough Chiefs for you? ;)

    Though there are some good arguments that the AB's should be a bit more experimental with their team selection, I'm sure they still have the last match of 2012 in their minds. Because of this the sole focus of this match will be winning.

    Quite a few changes to the AB's, but all largely predictable. The only slight surprise to me was the inclusion of Romano ahead of Retallick, but I assume that is to give Retallick a bit of a rest as much as anything (Romano scrummaging could also be an asset). I'm glad Faumuina's strong form has seen him rewarded with a start - at the start of the season he was clearly behind Owen Franks in the AB's pecking order, but that gap has closed substantially over the year (and indeed Faumuina may even be starting to overtake Franks....). Faumuina's ball carrying close to the breakdown could be a real asset to the AB's, as we don't have that many player capable of producing go-forward ball in the tight exchanges (Andrew Hore can do this pretty well too when he is playing). I'm glad to see Luatua get another shot at starting - he may still be behind Messam, but he has has an excellent season and brings some unique skills to the 6 jersey.

    Good to see Perenara on the bench - I would imagine he would get a good 20 mins as the AB's always sub their starting halfback at around the 60 minute mark. Cruden has been a bit quieter recently, but I'm expecting a big game from him. I'm hoping he uses those short flat kick-offs that have been so successful for him all season rather than the deep kicks that were used against England (though these were obviously a team tactic). No surprise to see Jane back starting (for the reasons I highlighted previously), though I do see Savea had knock at training, so we may see Piutau starting on the left wing if Savea is ruled out.
     
  8. lucky number 7

    lucky number 7 International

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    Who are you?
    Why are you so upset?
    How are the Kangaroos?
    Why is the best player in Australia a hand me down from two other insignificant sports?
     
  9. lucky number 7

    lucky number 7 International

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    [​IMG]

    x3


    Come at me.
     
  10. TRF Mr Fish

    TRF Mr Fish Your Piscine Overlord

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    I'm just disappointed we aren't experimenting a wee bit more. Give Kerr-Barlow a start against a better team than Japan, give Bird another match from the bench, same with Toomaga-Allen. And give Saili another run, at the very least from the bench. The Irish midfield is hardly intimidating.
     
  11. Chikwa

    Chikwa Academy Player

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    Next year we will have to experiment a lot more to build the World Cup squad .Kerr Barlow and TJ should be fully tested.The likes of Dominic bird and brad shields.Saili should be tried so we can confirm he is not ready! Hopefully robbie fruen had an outstanding super 15.Hecis definitely better than crotty.we need to win this game and that's why we can't experiment too much.
     
  12. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    If this was Kidney throwing all the 50-50 selection calls to Munstermen, it would (and did) provoke rage. And you'd have guys lining up to defend the 50-50 calls, and a bunch of guys angry at them. Schmidt deserves a chance to prove he's not another Kidney, but it would have been nice if he'd started by not bringing up the question. UlsterRugby is far from the angriest Ulsterman I've seen on the issue.
     
  13. David Smith

    David Smith Academy Player

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    1. David Smith
    2. No Respect for wallabies side
    3. Great
    4. Because he is a freak of nature with very high skills and better then most of the northern hemisphere
     
  14. Kapa O Pango

    Kapa O Pango Academy Player

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    Brain O'Driscoll is very pretty.
     
  15. Sam Owen

    Sam Owen BANNED!!!

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    If Hansen mucks Fruean around for too long, he might go elsewhere. That's based on what I've seen with other players like Evans and Ranger. Saili is great when he's playing for us in the Blues but when he's playing for NZ, he's a lesser player IMO. They should go with Fruean, forget his defensive frailties and let him open his wings because his attack is well worth the kind of persistance they're giving Saili. He's a world class attacker, especially outside a Cruden, Carter or SBW.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  16. Bpw

    Bpw Academy Player

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    This selection policy is depressing. Kearney jr over Trimble, the beard over Marshall. These are just brain dead calls.
    But the real Problemn is amount 10/12 of irish team are undropable no matter how bad they play ( I inc best and bowe). This is what leads to flat performance after flat performance. The players travelling to training camps who know no matter how they do they never will be selected.

    This not a go at Leinster who are a great side.
    Ross is ****. Why not give Fitzpatrick ago he couldn't be worse although not convinced he would be a lot better.
    Toner is average and touy (who is average as well) has been playing well why not give him at least one game.
    Heaslip has lost form for at least two years apart from the lions tour where he had competition for his place. I think he needs to sit on the bench for a few games.
    Bod on a fare well tour and if anyone deserves it it's him. The Problemn is nobody deserves it.
    Really no option to Kearney but super rob is muck at the moment.
    Poc is maybe passed it to.

    Any changes compared to who joe picked is the equivalence of picking your nose before weighing yourself when facing the blacks but we will never get the 2009 heaslip back until we do.
     
  17. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    I don't think you can really say Hansen has "mucked Fruean around". He has (rightly in my opinion) decided that Fruean isn't good enough for test rugby so hasn't picked him. Fruean had some good Super Rugby seasons in 2011 and 2012 (though his defense and lack of consistency was a major issue), but with Conrad Smith, Tamati Ellison, (and Kahui when fit) available there hasn't been any need for him. Now they have developed Ben Smith at centre there isn't any room for a specialist centre in the squad unless Conrad or Ben were injured. The difference with Saili is that he is picked primarily as Nonu's backup at 12 - though he can cover 13 he wouldn't be competing with Fruean for a spot in the AB's squad (he will be competing mainly with Crotty).

    I do agree with what you say about the prospect of Fruean leaving the country if he doesn't get in the AB's soon. I imagine Japanese clubs would play a high price for a player with his attacking prowess! It will be really interesting to see how he goes for the Chiefs this season - there is plenty of competition for the 13 jersey in the Chiefs squad, but Fruean could bring another dimension to the Chiefs attack if he gets back to his best.
     
  18. Groundhog

    Groundhog #1 Cuck

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    Sadly the amount of injuries means that while for the first time in ages we have near enough to our best team out, we have absolutely no depth on the wing (Gilroy, Zebo, Earls), and sadly the ability to break the line was an area we really struggled last week. I've said it before. I don't like Toner. I don't think he is tough enough or aggressive enough for international rugby. He is one of what BG8 calls an excellent provincial player who don't or won't cut it at international. Tuohy should be ahead of him.
    As for the selection of D'Arcy, well I can't justify his selection on merit. I don't see the point of picking him on the basis of his partnership with BO'D as he has been fairly stagnant too as a result of clear injury. He clearly was not alright last week when he refused to come off and I doubt he is alright now. I'm happy to see them given a last crack of the whip at NZ, but we can't really pick players on the basis of giving them a last chance to beat the AB's.
    Ross was pretty awful last week, but maybe as BG says it was a problem with rows, I dunno. Either way it's not like we have another legitimate option there unless we feel like calling up Marty Moore who is the only Irish TH who has looked ok this year.
    Heaslip has done nothing much in the past two games. He's gone quiet and despite what he offers in the breakdown and tackle I want him to carry on Sunday. I want to know he's on the pitch but I would persist with his selection.
    I don't rate Trimble as an International standard player but it remains to be seen if Dave Kearney is either. Two basic tries in a walkover against Samoa won't mean much when he's up against the best Co-ordinated backline in the world. Sure is a baptism of fire for him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  19. Bpw

    Bpw Academy Player

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    will agree to disagree on Trimble. I think there is a gulf in class between him and kearney jr.
    we don't have a international standard tight head but Fitzpatrick should be given a go.
    I would drop healsip. play sob at 8 and play Jennings(a wonderful cheat) at 7.
    but my main point is we need competition for places.
     
  20. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    Heaslip won't carry as long as he is helping to carry the can for Mike Ross' relative non-contribution and O'Mahony's seagulling. Someone needs to do the dirty work of hitting rucks and short carries and if two of the pack aren't really interested, the other 6 basically have to do it. It really puzzles me why, out of Heaslip, O'Brien and O'Mahony, you'd ask the last one to be the primary wide carrier.
     
  21. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    I really don't think people realise what a **** hand Schmidt has been dealt. He comes into the squad for three tests two of which were always going to be very difficult and had the players shown up and had Johnny Cash been fit last week we would have beaten Australia and no one would be reacting this way. He has heaps of injuries which left him without his first choice left wing, Zebo, and two other players at about the same level as Mcfadden, Earls and Gilroy, to fight it out for a spot and now we're down to our 5th choice left wing with a utility back who has huge potential but is coming off a string of long term injuries. We've also lost Henry who I think was going to be Schmidt's starting 7 to allow him to unleash Heaslip and O'Brien to their maximum ball running abilities not to mention Henderson who would most certainly make the bench ahead of Mclaughlan, who doesn't cut it for me at all internationally.

    He's also been given this with no experienced back up players due to Kidney never using them, this wouldn't be a problem had Samoa not been the first game because he needed that Samoa game to test his systems and Australia and New Zealand aren't exactly teams to put experimental sides out against. Honestly even with all of this I still think he has picked the correct side apart from the second row, whereas it's too early to say Toner can't cut it internationally considering he was very good against Samoa he shouldn't be in there forcing O'Connell out of position, McCarthy and Tuohy both provide fantastic scrum options and any second row in the world should be able to work in a Paul O'Connell run line out. I'd also love to see anyone ahead of Peter O'Mahoney but that's more out of him being a prick who's overrated to ****.

    As for the centres who seem to be the most hotly disputed selection calls, who remembers the last time Sexton, D'Arcy and O'Driscoll played a full game of international rugby together? It was Wales earlier this year which happens to be the only game all year where Ireland have played to anywhere near their potential, so give up with all this 'they're too old' bull**** at the moment these guys are the best we've got.

    Whether they'll be the best during the 6 nations is another question and the six nations is also a much easier place to blood people than playing SANZAR teams. I think by the end of the 6nations we'll have about 4 changes to the curren line ups we've been throwing out, TH prop, Second Row, Blindside flanker and Inside Centre.
     
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