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[EOYT] Ireland vs New Zealand 24/11/13

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TRF_Peat

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Not only must I disagree vehemently with the idea that D'Arcy is currently better than Marshall, I was under the impression that the IC selection call was made while the management still thought Jackson was going to be starting at 10. So it wasn't about reuniting the Leinster triumvirate if that's true.

International rugby is all about winning on crap hands. Injury and player pool liabilities hamstring everyone. Everybody is up against quality. Ireland did very poorly with the Australia game and I simply can't agree that it was solely due to Sexton's fitness. The defence was awful and the pack got done.

Rushing to condemn him is wrong, but so is the tide of defensiveness. If he deserves it, Ireland will show better tomorrow, and we'll see something in the Six Nations.
 

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1. David Smith
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The Alpha Bro

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Not only must I disagree vehemently with the idea that D'Arcy is currently better than Marshall, I was under the impression that the IC selection call was made while the management still thought Jackson was going to be starting at 10. So it wasn't about reuniting the Leinster triumvirate if that's true.
International rugby is all about winning on crap hands. Injury and player pool liabilities hamstring everyone. Everybody is up against quality. Ireland did very poorly with the Australia game and I simply can't agree that it was solely due to Sexton's fitness. The defence was awful and the pack got done.

Rushing to condemn him is wrong, but so is the tide of defensiveness. If he deserves it, Ireland will show better tomorrow, and we'll see something in the Six Nations.

I would also say Marshall is better than D'Arcy, although not as much as people seem to be making out recently as D'Arcy is being completely underrated while Marshall is quite overrated but that's just down to age neither are world beaters. (Anymore and yet) I think Schmidt either knew Sexton and BOD would be fit or he lucked out because I believe that the Racing Leinster 10, 12, 13 axis is the best we have but if Jackson was starting, or Madigan for that matter, I would have definitely picked Marshall considering we simply go from next to no chance to no chance of winning this game without Sexton.

Ireland were pure **** against the Aussies but with Mcfadden playing well, Bowe, Sexton (at 70%) and O'Brien doing OK and everyone else playing like they were part of the Ireland team in the 90's we were only three points down. Had we had Sexton second half we could have won because the game really was the Aussies playing bad but by God we were worse and although Madigan didn't do badly he just can't get the same results Sexton does out of players. Ireland were set up to win that game (even with the **** front 5 that will get battered tomorrow) and it wasn't Schmidt's instructions to miss tackles **** up easy line out balls and let the Aussies maul over for Hooper's second try with almost no defence that is completely down to the players in my opinion.

Tomorrow really is Schmidt's last 'day of grace' after that he is into a competition that Ireland have underperformed in since 2010 where changes to the side are an absolute necessity to replace players who won't make it to the world cup. If Schmidt continues to pick Leinster players in every 50-50 decision (60-40 in the case of Tuohy over Toner) criticism will be completely fair and I'll probably join in! We have Schmidt for the world cup though and he is the most intelligent rugby coach I have ever witnessed and I will be completely shocked if we don't come out with some great results under his reign, who knows they could even start tomorrow!
 
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I would also say Marshall is better than D'Arcy, although not as much as people seem to be making out recently as D'Arcy is being completely underrated while Marshall is quite overrated but that's just down to age neither are world beaters. (Anymore and yet) I think Schmidt either knew Sexton and BOD would be fit or he lucked out because I believe that the Racing Leinster 10, 12, 13 axis is the best we have but if Jackson was starting, or Madigan for that matter, I would have definitely picked Marshall considering we simply go from next to no chance to no chance of winning this game without Sexton.
Clive Woodward spouts an awful lot of crap but one theory of his I agree with is that of "medal" players. That is, you want players who'll be in the top 3 at their position come the World Cup. The more "gold medal" players the better. Luke Marshall has the potential to be a medal player in 2 years time. D'arcy doesn't. For that reason I'm inclined to agree that selecting D'arcy was the wrong call with the long term in mind. No disrespect meant but Andrew Trimble, Declan Fitzpatrick and Dan Tuohy will never be medal players so I'm not too bothered by their non inclusion.

If Declan Kidney picked this team, chances are I'd be more critical of it. However with 2 Heineken Cup wins, an Amlin Cup win, a Pro 12 win, a B&I Cup win and a couple of Pro 12 final appearances in 3 years in charge of Leinster, Joe Schmidt deserves the benefit of the doubt for now. If he's still picking Gordon D'arcy, Brian O'Driscoll and (perhaps) Mike Ross during the summer tour, questions will be asked. Let's see what sort of teams Schmidt comes up with when he has a healthy Simon Zebo, Craig Gilroy, Keith Earls, Richardt Strauss, Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson and Stephen Ferris at his disposal.
 

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f he's still picking Gordon D'arcy, Brian O'Driscoll and (perhaps) Mike Ross during the summer tour, questions will be asked. Let's see what sort of teams Schmidt comes up with when he has a healthy Simon Zebo, Craig Gilroy, Keith Earls, Richardt Strauss, Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson and Stephen Ferris at his disposal.
You can be sure he won't pick BOD he's confirmed he's retiring from playing for Ireland after the end of the 6 nations.
 

big ginger 8

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If this was Kidney throwing all the 50-50 selection calls to Munstermen, it would (and did) provoke rage. And you'd have guys lining up to defend the 50-50 calls, and a bunch of guys angry at them. Schmidt deserves a chance to prove he's not another Kidney, but it would have been nice if he'd started by not bringing up the question. UlsterRugby is far from the angriest Ulsterman I've seen on the issue.
The reason he's getting defended is because of the time span. Kidney kept doing it for years it's not the same story, many were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt initially with the AI series and he won a grand slam following it so most were farely ok with it. All I'm saying is to give him a chance if he is still doing it by the Summer tour I'll quite happily join in. As I've said before I'm not happy about every call but there's none I'm so incredibly worked up about that I'm going to start being petty.
 

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The reason he's getting defended is because of the time span. Kidney kept doing it for years it's not the same story, many were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt initially with the AI series and he won a grand slam following it so most were farely ok with it. All I'm saying is to give him a chance if he is still doing it by the Summer tour I'll quite happily join in. As I've said before I'm not happy about every call but there's none I'm so incredibly worked up about that I'm going to start being petty.

Perhaps I've made my judgements a bit early, so I apologize about that comment and I'll reserve further judgements until after the game. However chances are not much will change as I see literally no possibility of us coming within 10 points tomorrow.


Just remember it's all well and good when plenty of your provinces' players are being picked and therefore it's most likely harder for you to be critical of them. Pick 3 players from the best team in the league last year and people are going to get annoyed.
Im not suggesting that Schmidt will be a repeat of Kidney, and yeah he's been dealt a ****e hand for these tests but I don't think that gives him immunity from criticism.
 

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K, last chance, world. Ireland, you must beat NZ. The fate of the entire universe depends upon you...well wait this is ridiculously exaggerated, but in deed if you don't succeed, NZ and SA will have demonstrated they're still just better than us in Europe.......

Ireland have got nothing to lose - nothing. Who cares if they try risky things and pay points for it, sure it sucks in the history books to see Ireland's last match ended with a 50-10 loss, but there's no choice anyways. Ireland have to step on their homefield with pure confidence, nothing to lose, no complex, just play their game. There are literally no stakes at all.

I hope they can use that kind of mindset so they'll be nice and loose as a team and won't play the first 20 with a cork up their buttholes.
 

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K, last chance, world. Ireland, you must beat NZ. The fate of the entire universe depends upon you...well wait this is ridiculously exaggerated, but in deed if you don't succeed, NZ and SA will have demonstrated they're still just better than us in Europe.......

Ireland have got nothing to lose - nothing. Who cares if they try risky things and pay points for it, sure it sucks in the history books to see Ireland's last match ended with a 50-10 loss, but there's no choice anyways. Ireland have to step on their homefield with pure confidence, nothing to lose, no complex, just play their game. There are literally no stakes at all.

I hope they can use that kind of mindset so they'll be nice and loose as a team and won't play the first 20 with a cork up their buttholes.
Ireland can definitely do it but a lot has to go their way. You can have a good points advantage, the refs calls, territory, possession, homeground and still lose to the ABs. The French, the English games may have shed some light for the Irish as to how to beat the blacks.

They need to get a good start and to finish strong. The first 20mins and the last 20mins is important, the middle 40 they need to be leading or at least in touch. If the Irish get a good lead, then they just gotta slow the game right down, milk the clock, walk to everything. Everyone in the Irish team needs to be a contender for MOTM. It's very possible.

As for the blacks they're just the best. They lose this one game, it really won't matter because they'll still be the best.
 

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Ireland can definitely do it but a lot has to go their way. You can have a good points advantage, the refs calls, territory, possession, homeground and still lose to the ABs. The French, the English games may have shed some light for the Irish as to how to beat the blacks.

They need to get a good start and to finish strong. The first 20mins and the last 20mins is important, the middle 40 they need to be leading or at least in touch. If the Irish get a good lead, then they just gotta slow the game right down, milk the clock, walk to everything. Everyone in the Irish team needs to be a contender for MOTM. It's very possible.

As for the blacks they're just the best. They lose this one game, it really won't matter because they'll still be the best.
I can imagine plumtree and co delivering such a pep talk .unfortunately unless the AB's fall mysteriously ill or there is divine intervention.The Irish have no chance.
 

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Ireland can definitely do it but a lot has to go their way. You can have a good points advantage, the refs calls, territory, possession, homeground and still lose to the ABs. The French, the English games may have shed some light for the Irish as to how to beat the blacks.

They need to get a good start and to finish strong. The first 20mins and the last 20mins is important, the middle 40 they need to be leading or at least in touch. If the Irish get a good lead, then they just gotta slow the game right down, milk the clock, walk to everything. Everyone in the Irish team needs to be a contender for MOTM. It's very possible.

As for the blacks they're just the best. They lose this one game, it really won't matter because they'll still be the best.
Don't disagree, but if the ABs lose this one they are unpastuerised laughing stock.

Ireland are in terrible shape, haven't seen them so bad for years.
 

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I can imagine plumtree and co delivering such a pep talk .unfortunately unless the AB's fall mysteriously ill or there is divine intervention.The Irish have no chance.
Yeah we'll you and so many others including myself see the Irish losing but they're a side very capable of beating the blacks. I can actually see what I've posted before happening. A few penalties here and there, crucial mistakes from the blacks, complacency from the blacks, the Irish do have a chance. They have a chance against anyone.
 

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Amazing advertising for the match:

 
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my prediction ireland 3 - 37 all blacks
 

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Perhaps I've made my judgements a bit early, so I apologize about that comment and I'll reserve further judgements until after the game. However chances are not much will change as I see literally no possibility of us coming within 10 points tomorrow.


Just remember it's all well and good when plenty of your provinces' players are being picked and therefore it's most likely harder for you to be critical of them. Pick 3 players from the best team in the league last year and people are going to get annoyed.
Im not suggesting that Schmidt will be a repeat of Kidney, and yeah he's been dealt a ****e hand for these tests but I don't think that gives him immunity from criticism.
Ulster were the best team in the league last year but unfortunately Jared Payne, Ruan Pienaar, Nick Williams, Johann Muller and John Afoa can't join Tommy Bowe and Rory Best in the Ireland team. Henderson is just back from injury and a reason was given for Marshall who is overrated anyway, Tuohy should be in there I'll admit but you cant say Ulster are the best province so they should have the most players because unlike Leinster and Munster the majority of the driving force of the team is not Irish.
 

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Ulster were the best team in the league last year but unfortunately Jared Payne, Ruan Pienaar, Nick Williams, Johann Muller and John Afoa can't join Tommy Bowe and Rory Best in the Ireland team. Henderson is just back from injury and a reason was given for Marshall who is overrated anyway, Tuohy should be in there I'll admit but you cant say Ulster are the best province so they should have the most players because unlike Leinster and Munster the majority of the driving force of the team is not Irish.


Very true, (I know some of these guys were injured) however Trimble, Henderson, Tuohy, Gilroy, Wilson, Diack, Cave, and even Court (I'm not suggesting him over McGrath) provide a very strong structure to the team. Wilson, Diack and Cave are seriously underrated, but especially Cave and if you watched the game last night you would see what he's capable of doing.

And as somebody pointed out in another thread - he's still only 26. Ireland could get a solid 3 years out of him, and in my opinion if they developed him he could become a pretty decent international player. By the time the World Cup came we would have Henshaw and Cave, with Payne covering 13 and 15.

EDIT: Oh and I didn't once say they should have the most players - but 3 players is a pretty pathetic representation which was what I was getting at. Heck, if I could pick my own Ireland team it would go Leinster > Ulster > Munster > Connacht regarding numbers.
 
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Jeez what has Trimble, Marshall, McCarthy and Jackson done to get such harsh treatment?
Got to be a confidence smash to Reddan as well to be not just demoted to the bench but completely dropped
 

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Also don't buy the Jackson doesn't play twelve thing
This was his second season and I believe after this performance against connacht (at 12) he was agreed favorite for starting the Rabo semi and ERC Final which in his second season is huge and this was all after he romped the game at 12

EDIT: This clip shows him set up a line break, score a try, pass very well in general play, ruck, crash ball and make all the right decisions in only 3 minutes of play
 
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lucky number 7

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Jeez what has Trimble, Marshall, McCarthy and Jackson done to get such harsh treatment?
Got to be a confidence smash to Reddan as well to be not just demoted to the bench but completely dropped
Trimble isn't international standard. We've seen this over the years.
Marshall is a quality operator but again completely unproven at international level although I don't doubt he'll be a top 9 over the 6N
McCarthy should be starting , O'Connell is as I've always believed to be a weak link in the scrum.
Jackson in my opinion isn't up to it. Not yet at least. a very Hyped up player and credit to him at his age he definitely does a job , but again I'm unsure as to whether he is really a top player
 
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