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Ragey Erasmus

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I don't think it was a break test at all tbh, Hamilton should have gone inside, there was room, Comms seem to agree. I think it'll be deemed a race incident/misunderstanding and crack on.

No way they don't have the equal points finale next week either.
I don't think so, given all the crashes and debris there is no way Hamilton could have known Verstappen wasn't slowing down due to obstructions on the track. Masi ****** up (again), he should have warned Merc but didn't until after the incident. Max also didn't go all the way to the side and did kink his car to the left as Hamilton approached.

The whole race was a complete farce.
 

ncurd

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God fans....Max driver of the day my arse....
 

ncurd

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Max is going to throw away championships in the future if he genuinely doesn't understand why he's getting these penalties. It's one thing being genuinely harsh/dirty ala Schumacher but if you don't understand why your getting them that's just naive.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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The anti-Hamilton brigade out in force acting like somehow Hamilton wanted to crash into Verstappen. Only 1 driver would benefit from a double DNF and it wasn't Hamilton. You can see on the replay when Hamilton gets to the point where he would pull out to the left to go past Verstappen, Verstappen kinks left then back right then suddenly slows down...
 
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die_mole

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Two more penalty points (three total this weekend) and another ten second penalty

Idk how anyone can defend him anymore
 

ncurd

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Two more penalty points (three total this weekend) and another ten second penalty

Idk how anyone can defend him anymore
I'm definitely of the opinion Max essentially needs to be read the riot act before this weekend. By that I mean told if he takes Hamilton out he'll get DSQ from the championship like Schucmacher was 1997. Doesn't have to be deliberate either.

Should say Hamilton has definitely pushing the limit if what legal such as in the restarts. Max also need to calm the **** down 99% sure it got in his head which led to the poor restart the original 1st corners incident and it snowballed from there. Hamiltons only really been squeaky clean in race latter half because he's had to be and can't afford for whatever reason to acquire penalties.

However it's definitely a maturity thing Hamilton knows what he's doing and pushes the limit where he can or goes over as a calculated risk. Verstappen doesn't appear to understand if you break the rules you get penalised.
 

ncurd

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It's interesting reading the summary if what happened. Hamilton not knowing why Verstappen has slowed thinks pretty quickly that he can follow him closely pick up DRS and take him on the straight. Which is all pretty sensible if you think he has problem that might be fixed quickly or even if he's giving the place back.

Where it goes wrong is Verstappen thinks he's being clever and will get DRS as well. A pretty smart manuveure as well but requires the other driver to fall for it. When Hamilton doesn't he has a moment of sheer stupidity and sharply breaks with Hamilton directly beside because he think Hamilton is beside him.

Its not malice just poor racecraft.

It also points to the fact the FIA needs to codify giving places back a procedure so the car behind knows what's happening first. And the place can't be taken back until after they've passed all DRS zones once. That way the cars cant play silly buggers with the detection point.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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That report definitely reads that the steward's are predominantly at fault, then Max, then Lewis.

Dishing out a penalty that has no effect on the race or standings to be seen to be doing something.

Very dirty race yesterday and a very dirty weekend, Max and Lewis really as bad as each other over the course of Saturday and Sunday. That track really needs to be looked at. Hopefully Red Bull's dominance in Abu Dhabi last year translates and Verstappen can coast off into the distance, he's still been the best driver this year regardless of controversies and deserves the championship.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Doesn't have to be deliberate either.
lol
"You MUST let Lewis win, if you don't you will be disqualified!"

Considering Mercedes habit of "accidentally" taking out the opposition, that's hilarious


Hamilton fans remind me a lot of Springbok fans, the worlds out to get them
 

ncurd

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If Max wins I hope by more than the joke that was Spa (3.5 points).

As to best driver I'd really struggle to say Max is better he's taken more penalties and been on the wrong side duel to his driving. He's also not really put in a performance like Sao Paolo (hard when your at the front). But point being he's not really had an outstanding race result and when the chips have been down he's come second place.
 

ncurd

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lol
"You MUST let Lewis win, if you don't you will be disqualified!"

Considering Mercedes habit of "accidentally" taking out the opposition, that's hilarious
No you must drive clean and not take out the other driver or you will be disqualified. This isn't any penalty but one where you take the opposing driver is taken out the race. There is precedence such as 1997.

Hamilton should be told the exact same thing but more likely in these incidents in the past both driver get taken out so he won't get any benefit for taking that risk.

The even not with intent thing is suppose to cover incidents like yesterday where Max probably didn't intend to take out Hamilton but on another day would of.

Despite all the conspiracy theories mostly its down to bad driving there are probably a handful of incidents where a driver has deliberately taken out another. Manado, Prost, Senna, Schumacher x 2
 

Le Frére Alpha

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If Max wins I hope by more than the joke that was Spa (3.5 points).

As to best driver I'd really struggle to say Max is better he's taken more penalties and been on the wrong side duel to his driving. He's also not really put in a performance like Sao Paolo (hard when your at the front). But point being he's not really had an outstanding race result and when the chips have been down he's come second place.
Russia was fairly impressive and he's lost a championship winning amount of points purely from being taken out by Mercs and more again from his tyre blowing out of nowhere in Baku. Hamilton being allowed to win the Silverstone race was a bigger farce as Spa.

Hamilton has made more costly mistakes, Baku was worse than Max' quali crash and he was just largely unimpressive at the start of the season when he thought Red Bull were quicker to the point he couldn't win.

Don't know how anyone could argue Lewis has been better when Max can point to three races where he would have had at least two second places and a win but due to car damage and DNFs that weren't his fault he collected two points. Short/selective memory is the only way you can possibly think Hamilton deserves to be in with a sniff of the ***le next week.
 

ncurd

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Russia was fairly impressive and he's lost a championship winning amount of points purely from being taken out by Mercs and more again from his tyre blowing out of nowhere in Baku. Hamilton being allowed to win the Silverstone race was a bigger farce as Spa.

Hamilton has made more costly mistakes, Baku was worse than Max' quali crash and he was just largely unimpressive at the start of the season when he thought Red Bull were quicker to the point he couldn't win.

Don't know how anyone could argue Lewis has been better when Max can point to three races where he would have had at least two second places and a win but due to car damage and DNFs that weren't his fault he collected two points. Short/selective memory is the only way you can possibly think Hamilton deserves to be in with a sniff of the ***le next week.
Hamilton has probably lost 2 championships in his entire career due to bad luck and DNF's (China way back in his rookie season) and 2016 with Rosberg. It happens.

Tyre management is key and Red Bull were idiots for keeping him out they all knew he was pushing the limit of what they could do. All the other blowouts show he wasn't just unlucky. Hell he was lucky yesterday the same didn't happen (probably didn't due to all the VSC) but his tyres were only suppose last until 5 laps to go.

Still maintain Silverstone is a racing incident (there was room) apart from a DSQ Hamiton would of one even with the biggest penalty, the only two actual defences/overtakes I take exception to was Verstappen's defence in Sao Paolo and the Turn 1 incident here. Esssentially if you have to leave the track as well it should be a penalty. I wouldn't of blamed Monza on Verstappen either that was caused by the kerb more than anything else.

Also Hamiton unimpressive at start of season he won 3 of the first 4 races! Its only really Monaco and Turkey he's left significant points out there (Austria as well to a lesser extent).
 
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ncurd

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Should add when I say turn 1 incident I mean after the first restart when they got swapped around under red flags. Max I do think was unfairly punished for his defence that led to his 5 second penalty and all his other cocks ups but it is apart from Sao Paolo consistent with how theyve been adjudging these incidents.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Hamilton has probably lost 2 championships in his entire career due to bad luck and DNF's (China way back in his rookie season) and 2016 with Rosberg. It happens.
Yeah, he also won in 2008 and 2014 because of DNFs and damage out of Massa's and Rosberg's control. But we're talking about who the quicker driver has been this year and it's blatantly Verstappen.
Tyre management is key and Red Bull were idiots for keeping him out they all knew he was pushing the limit of what they could do. All the other blowouts show he wasn't just unlucky. Hell he was lucky yesterday the same didn't happen (probably didn't due to all the VSC) but his tyres were only suppose last until 5 laps to go.
Pirelli issued new protocols following it. They were well within safe data ranges when it happened.
Still maintain Silverstone is a racing incident (there was room) apart from a DSQ Hamiton would of one even with the biggest penalty, the only two actual defences/overtakes I take exception to was Verstappen's defence in Sao Paolo and the Turn 1 incident here. Esssentially if you have to leave the track as well it should be a penalty. I wouldn't of blamed Monza on Verstappen either that was caused by the kerb more than anything else.
The FIA thought it was a penalty, the penalty just didn't fit what had happened. 10 second penalty or a drive through would have pushed him to second, he took out the race leader, 5 seconds is ridiculously soft.

The FIA have a lot of work to do in the off season regarding penalties. They've very much gone for an approach where they're seen to be doing something but have a minimal, and in most cases hopefully no effect on proceedings. They're regularly bullied by Merc and RB into investigating things that don't need to be, and they were nearly begging RB to accept penalties yesterday. On track incidents should be non-negotiable, illegalities/cheating with car design like Sao Paolo should be the only things opposition teams can bring to the attention of the stewards. As a bit of a tangent, what the hell was that radio message yesterday when Hamilton pushed Max off the track and they said something along the lines of "that should have been a black and white flag, take this as a warning", like how spineless can you get?
Also Hamiton unimpressive at start of season he won 3 of the first 4 races! Its only really Monaco and Turkey he's left significant points out there (Austria as well to a lesser extent).
You're correct, Middle more so than start is where Hamilton was off the boil, it started in Baku where he threw 25 points away. Had he not shunted Verstappen off or Bottas didn't do the same for him he'd have given up an insurmountable lead by the Dutch GP. Like if one of those three things didn't happen, two of which were literally Merc's doing, Verstappen only would need a top 4 next week.

Edit: Not sure what's happened here but I seem to have broken the thread somehow on my browser?
 

ncurd

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Yeah, he also won in 2008 and 2014 because of DNFs and damage out of Massa's and Rosberg's control. But we're talking about who the quicker driver has been this year and it's blatantly Verstappen.

Pirelli issued new protocols following it. They were well within safe data ranges when it happened.

The FIA thought it was a penalty, the penalty just didn't fit what had happened. 10 second penalty or a drive through would have pushed him to second, he took out the race leader, 5 seconds is ridiculously soft.

The FIA have a lot of work to do in the off season regarding penalties. They've very much gone for an approach where they're seen to be doing something but have a minimal, and in most cases hopefully no effect on proceedings. They're regularly bullied by Merc and RB into investigating things that don't need to be, and they were nearly begging RB to accept penalties yesterday. On track incidents should be non-negotiable, illegalities/cheating with car design like Sao Paolo should be the only things opposition teams can bring to the attention of the stewards. As a bit of a tangent, what the hell was that radio message yesterday when Hamilton pushed Max off the track and they said something along the lines of "that should have been a black and white flag, take this as a warning", like how spineless can you get?

You're correct, Middle more so than start is where Hamilton was off the boil, it started in Baku where he threw 25 points away. Had he not shunted Verstappen off or Bottas didn't do the same for him he'd have given up an insurmountable lead by the Dutch GP. Like if one of those three things didn't happen, two of which were literally Merc's doing, Verstappen only would need a top 4 next week.

Edit: Not sure what's happened here but I seem to have broken the thread somehow on my browser?
I had some tables that effed some things up clean out my quotes.

I'm unsure a bigger penalty would have effected Hamitlon its hard to tell when they so regularly once out in front 'take it easy'.

The FIA do have to ban backchat or raising things to get it to the stewards in race. I don't know if it went on before this season as its the first time we've had FIA radio and it has to be stopped now. Basically the FIA should be allowed to talk to the teams and all they should ever get back from the teams is an understood or a direct answer to a question. The only exception should be if drivers are worried about conditions like wet weather. Its honestly getting ridiculous or always has been.


I have no idea what that warning was about if I'm honest, might have looked away and Brundle/Croft didn't call attention to it. But yeah show the Black/White flag if deserved like Max was for weaving under breaking in Sao Paolo otherwise don't and say nothing of it.
 

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I still think Verstappen would have dared more penalties if other drivers acted like him. He basically says I'm either going here or staying here and if you don't give way we're crashing. He relies on other drivers not being willing to crash. He's a reckless driver who will end up causing a huge accident one day.

On Silverstone I still haven't had a good reason as to why making the apex matters. That may be the rules, but I've no idea why. If a car is there a car is there. No idea why Max is allowed to turn in on Hamilton and when they hit say he had the racing line.
 

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I still think Verstappen would have dared more penalties if other drivers acted like him. He basically says I'm either going here or staying here and if you don't give way we're crashing. He relies on other drivers not being willing to crash. He's a reckless driver who will end up causing a huge accident one day.

On Silverstone I still haven't had a good reason as to why making the apex matters. That may be the rules, but I've no idea why. If a car is there a car is there. No idea why Max is allowed to turn in on Hamilton and when they hit say he had the racing line.
The Apex is determined by the fastest line through a corner and in terms of speed and shortest distance. A driver unless he screws up will always want to make the Apex because its the quickest line.

What Hamilton did was decide he didn't want to make the apex but push Verstappen out wide determining that a less optimum route for him was even less optimum for Verstappen.

What I don't understand is this is technically allowed you can push a car wide in your defence as long as you give them enough room on track (or at least as far as I understood). At no point in Hamilton's line is there not enough room, he also doesn't radically alter his line either. He's sequeezing Verstappen I think its been done on the outcome rather than an actual fault as I think both drivers are fighting for that middle position and neither yielded, Hamilton just got lucky with the result.

Its interesting since then on track racing Hamilton has erred on the side of caution whereas Verstappen hasn't.
 

Reiser99

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The Apex is determined by the fastest line through a corner and in terms of speed and shortest distance. A driver unless he screws up will always want to make the Apex because its the quickest line.

What Hamilton did was decide he didn't want to make the apex but push Verstappen out wide determining that a less optimum route for him was even less optimum for Verstappen.

What I don't understand is this is technically allowed you can push a car wide in your defence as long as you give them enough room on track (or at least as far as I understood). At no point in Hamilton's line is there not enough room, he also doesn't radically alter his line either. He's sequeezing Verstappen I think its been done on the outcome rather than an actual fault as I think both drivers are fighting for that middle position and neither yielded, Hamilton just got lucky with the result.

Its interesting since then on track racing Hamilton has erred on the side of caution whereas Verstappen hasn't.
Yeah I understand about the apex. What I don't get is why a car has to make it or they are penalised. It wasn't that Hamilton missed the apex and hit Max, Max hit Hamilton because he felt he was 'entitled to the racing line'. As you said Hamilton didn't force him off track and let him space. If Max has to drive further to retake the place so be it. We've seen plenty of examples of drivers racing side by side without hitting each other. Difference is Max will turn in to force the other driver to give way and if they don't it causes an accident. That's why he is reckless and dangerous.
 

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