France's fall from the top

[LouisDavis]

As an avid supporter of international rugby, much more so than domestic, I am rather disappointed at French rugby's fall from grace. The only possible reason I can see to this is the ridiculous money spent by French clubs. Toulon are becoming a joke when it comes to splashing the cash, top class players sign for them yet rarely feature on a consistent basis. This influx of players has led to French national players have limited game time at a suitably high level, which has negative effects to the national team. Thoughts?

 

[gaston le gaff]

As an avid supporter of international rugby, muverbal diaheare so than domestic, I am rather disappointed at French rugby's fall from grace. The only possible reason I can see to this is the ridiculous money spent by French clubs. Toulon are becoming a joke when it comes to splashing the cash, top class players sign for them yet rarely feature on a consistent basis. This influx of players has led to French national players have limited game time at a suitably high level, which has negative effects to the national team. Thoughts?

Looks like we have anew wind up merchant on the block another expert in verdal diarrhea but will anyone rise to the occasion!!!!

 

[Tony Manx]

If you don't, I won't and no one else can be bothered!!!!

 

[LouisDavis]

Looks like we have anew wind up merchant on the block another expert in verdal diarrhea but will anyone rise to the occasion!!!!

I'm new to this, please enlighten me on what I've done wrong and I'll drop the argument

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm new to this, please enlighten me on what I've done wrong and I'll drop the argument

well first off you claimed any SH team would beat any SH team because of how they play, then when results pointed out you were wrong you backpellded and changed the point to save face....your first thread is astir it up post about French club rugby.

Welcome to the forum, but maybe just tone it down until you get the feel for the place and the posters?

 

[LouisDavis]

well first off you claimed any SH team would beat any SH team because of how they play, then when results pointed out you were wrong you backpellded and changed the point to save face....

Welcome to the forum, but maybe just tone it down until you get the feel for the place and the posters?

Read my reply in the other post, this may clear things up. I still stand by the overwhelming point that is super rugby's quality exceeds that of the NH.
Thanks for the advice, I'll take it into account before embarking on further topics/debates.

 

[nickdnz]

Read my reply in the other post, this may clear things up. I still stand by the overwhelming point that is super rugby's quality exceeds that of the NH.
Thanks for the advice, I'll take it into account before embarking on further topics/debates.

A lot of NH posters are quite sensitive in SH/NH comparisons which are obvious to many .

Your topics has been discussed in length in quite a few threads. I would agree that the Top 14's influx of foreign players certainly doesn't help their national team. Neither does the domestic seasons length and number of games, the lack of support and unity between administration for the domestic league and national teams - and since 2007 - selecting national coaches who are clearly not the best candidates (this year excluded as I believe Noves has earned a shot). France also went through a remarkable rotation policy, and so it's quite bizarre how the only consistent selected players are often the ones who under perform.

 

[smartcooky]

A lot of NH posters are quite sensitive in SH/NH comparisons which are obvious to many .

Your topics has been discussed in length in quite a few threads. I would agree that the Top 14's influx of foreign players certainly doesn't help their national team. Neither does the domestic seasons length and number of games, the lack of support and unity between administration for the domestic league and national teams - and since 2007 - selecting national coaches who are clearly not the best candidates (this year excluded as I believe Noves has earned a shot). France also went through a remarkable rotation policy, and so it's quite bizarre how the only consistent selected players are often the ones who under perform.

The fact is that if you have 14 Elite teams, there are 14 openings for each starting position. If seven of those openings are taken by foreign players who are not eligible for your national team then, any way you slice it, that WILL limit your national selectors' choices.

Now the fact that France has 14 Elite teams means they can probably afford to allow this and still have reasonable choice. However, in NZ, we have only five teams at the equivalent level, if we give two of those openings away to foreign players, that will severely limit our selectors' choices. This is why we protect the integrity of our selection process by limiting the number of foreign players allowed to one or two per team and NOT in designated key areas such as Hooker, halfback and 1st 5/8. You will never see a Toulon type team in NZ Super rugby; NZR simply will not allow it to happen, and I happen to agree with that policy.

 

[Peat]

Conversely, if there was a Frenchman filling a slot in 12 or 13 teams, then the quality would probably be inadequate for the preparation of internationals, particularly when you consider the importance of reserves given the length of the season and attritional nature of the game.

It is abundantly clear that international rugby is not decided by who has the biggest player pool, or England and France would be dominant. Having ten, seven, or five or four (or even three) available starting slots for each eligible player every weekend does not make a decisive difference to the chances of a nation having international success.

So, no, the influx of foreign players isn't the major factor. It's even possible the negatives are outweighed by the positives.

This:

Neither does the domestic seasons length and number of games, the lack of support and unity between administration for the domestic league and national teams - and since 2007 - selecting national coaches who are clearly not the best candidates (this year excluded as I believe Noves has earned a shot). France also went through a remarkable rotation policy, and so it's quite bizarre how the only consistent selected players are often the ones who under perform.

I believe is a fair summation of the major problems as I see them, which could be further boiled down to:

French rugby focuses on international rugby far less than its contenders and consequently is worse prepared and performs inadequately.

An influx of foreigners is a symptom of that, but not the cause.

 

[FrenchFan]

Yawn

 

[TRF_heineken]

The fact is that if you have 14 Elite teams, there are 14 openings for each starting position. If seven of those openings are taken by foreign players who are not eligible for your national team then, any way you slice it, that WILL limit your national selectors' choices.

Now the fact that France has 14 Elite teams means they can probably afford to allow this and still have reasonable choice. However, in NZ, we have only five teams at the equivalent level, if we give two of those openings away to foreign players, that will severely limit our selectors' choices. This is why we protect the integrity of our selection process by limiting the number of foreign players allowed to one or two per team and NOT in designated key areas such as Hooker, halfback and 1st 5/8. You will never see a Toulon type team in NZ Super rugby; NZR simply will not allow it to happen, and I happen to agree with that policy.

The same can be said about South Africa.

But like I have said numerous times before, it will only strengthen the SH teams if a bunch of their top players go to the NH while still having a pool of players in the domestic/Super Rugby teams.

And HM's most recent training group is evidence of that. Heinke van Der Merwe, Morne Steyn, Zane Kirchner, Francois Louw are but a few guys who have been performing well for their NH team and now got called up to the Springbok side while still selecting a majority of locally based players.

And look at the Montpellier's recent signings. 13 South Africans and counting. 13!! that's basically half a squad just for new signings and all of them were SH players.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Has France greatly underperformed though? Havn't they always been a team of ups and downs while havingit in them to beat anyone on the day? I don't think that much has changed. In my memory they have never been higher than say 5th in the world on a consistent basis and the fact that Wales and Ireland are above them speaks as much to the strides made by those nations than a perception of France taking a nose dive.

In addition to the issues the posters above mentioned that might be holding back French test rugby (long season, poor coaching and little support for the test structures) I'd also say that the game itself has changed in the pro era and that defenses are just so much more accurate that those length of the field hand to hand tries are (mostly) a thing of the past and adds to a perception of French rugby havin lost it's attacking verve.

 

[LouisDavis]

Has France greatly underperformed though? Havn't they always been a team of ups and downs while havingit in them to beat anyone on the day? I don't think that much has changed. In my memory they have never been higher than say 5th in the world on a consistent basis and the fact that Wales and Ireland are above them speaks as much to the strides made by those nations than a perception of France taking a nose dive.

In addition to the issues the posters above mentioned that might be holding back French test rugby (long season, poor coaching and little support for the test structures) I'd also say that the game itself has changed in the pro era and that defenses are just so much more accurate that those length of the field hand to hand tries are (mostly) a thing of the past and adds to a perception of French rugby havin lost it's attacking verve.

France have most certainly underperformed, to go from World Cup finalists in 2011 to go to receiving the wooden spoon in 6N 2013 suggests something has drastically gone wrong. To say this is the failing of the players is wrong with the a star-studded back line including the likes of Fofana and Basteraud. One would point fingers at a lack luster coach in the form of Saint-Andre, whom has consistently picked the wrong team - the exclusion of Louis Piccamoles comes to mind. Being an avid welsh supporter myself, I would say we've gone down a notch ourselves in recent years, however, it's been covered up by the fact France's descent has been more noticeable and drastic.

 

[goodNumber10]

France have most certainly underperformed, to go from World Cup finalists in 2011 to go to receiving the wooden spoon in 6N 2013 suggests something has drastically gone wrong. To say this is the failing of the players is wrong with the a star-studded back line including the likes of Fofana and Basteraud. One would point fingers at a lack luster coach in the form of Saint-Andre, whom has consistently picked the wrong team - the exclusion of Louis Piccamoles comes to mind. Being an avid welsh supporter myself, I would say we've gone down a notch ourselves in recent years, however, it's been covered up by the fact France's descent has been more noticeable and drastic.

Well this is the point isn't it? They have the players - Fofana for a period was the best 12 in world rugby, Parra was the best 9.. etc...

So clearly it isn't the money issue you allude to in the first post as they are generating world class players and there are quotas in place on number of foreigners etc... So it has to be down to mismanagement and the environment within the National set up.

Politics plays a much bigger part int he poor performance of the National side then the clubs spending a lot of money does.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

France have most certainly underperformed, to go from World Cup finalists in 2011 to go to receiving the wooden spoon in 6N 2013 suggests something has drastically gone wrong. To say this is the failing of the players is wrong with the a star-studded back line including the likes of Fofana and Basteraud. One would point fingers at a lack luster coach in the form of Saint-Andre, whom has consistently picked the wrong team - the exclusion of Louis Piccamoles comes to mind. Being an avid welsh supporter myself, I would say we've gone down a notch ourselves in recent years, however, it's been covered up by the fact France's descent has been more noticeable and drastic.

Well I don't think anyone on here has laid any blame at the players' feet. If anything your saying France has a star-studded backline (which I tend to agree with for the most part) rubishes your OP and points towards other factors (poor coaching/selection, lack of continuity, lack of direction, cohesion and fitness).

I'm not so sure I'll take the 2011 RWC final and 2013 6N as measuring sticks. Sure you can say 2013 was a disaster 6N for France but they were in it with a chance (albeit an academic one) quite late in the tournament to win it just this year. Does that mean the test team is improving again. I wouldn't say so but it certainly shows the perception that France is on decline is just that; perception. 2011 can't be seen as a good year for France surely? I mean, they did make it to the RWC final and were probably the better team on the day and unlucky not to take the cup but at the same tournament they lost to Tonga and were lucky to even make it out of the pool stages. France's performances point to inconsistency rather than a lack of or decline in ability/potential. That is again due to numerous factors the last of which I'd argue is the presence of foreigners in the top 14.

 

[nickdnz]

Now the fact that France has 14 Elite teams means they can probably afford to allow this and still have reasonable choice. However, in NZ, we have only five teams at the equivalent level, if we give two of those openings away to foreign players, that will severely limit our selectors' choices. This is why we protect the integrity of our selection process by limiting the number of foreign players allowed to one or two per team and NOT in designated key areas such as Hooker, halfback and 1st 5/8. You will never see a Toulon type team in NZ Super rugby; NZR simply will not allow it to happen, and I happen to agree with that policy.

I'm afraid the number of teams the French league have at that top tier - doesn't prevent French players being blocked for the national team.

As an example which is often used is fly half. Here is next years fly halves. I have ranked the teams based on their table finish from last season - with newly promoted clubs at the bottom. I have ranked the players in order of who I imagine is most likely to start, some taken from stats, some from a bit of guess work (sorry to the French posters who will probably rip my assessment apart).


Toulon: Matt Giteau (AUS), Quade Cooper (AUS), Freddy Michelak (FRA)
Clermont: Brock James (AUS), Camille Lopez (FRA), Patricio Fernandez (ARG)
Toulouse: Toby Flood (ENG), Luke McAlister (NZ)
Stade Francais: Morne Steyn (SA), Jules Plisson (FRA), Meyer Bosman (SA)
Racing 92: Daniel Carter (NZ), Remi Tales (FRA), Benjamin Dambielle (FRA)
Oyannax: Nicky Robinson (Wales), Piri Weepu (NZ), Regis Lespanas (FRA)
Bordeaux Begles: Lionel Bauxis (FRA), Pierre Bernard (FRA), Romain Lonca (FRA)
Montpellier: Francois Trihn-Duc (FRA), Dimitri Catrakillis (SA), Ben Lucus (AUS), Llian Perraux (FRA)
Stade Rochelais: Fabien Fortassan (FRA), Jean-Pascal Barraque (FRA), Zack Holmes (AUS)
Brive: Thomas Laranjiera (FRA), Roman Sola (FRA), Anderson Neilson (FRA)
Pau: Colin Slade (NZ), Brandon Fajardo (FRA)
Castras: Benjamín María Urdapilleta (ARG), Daniel Kirkpatrick (NZ), Francois Fontaine (FRA)
Agen: Burton Francis (SA), Jacob Botica (NZ), Batista Guemes (FRA)
Grenoble: Gillies Bosch (FRA), Jonathan Wisniekski (FRA)

That's 19 fly halves. What is more interesting is the log jam of foreign fly halves playing in the higher ranked teams.

Toulon: Michelak is barely going to be used to 10
Clermont: Lopez will get reasonable gametime - probably start over Brock James
Toulouse: Unless Jean-Marc Doussain starts being used at 10, it's all Flood and McAlister
Stade: Plisson will probably see a reasonable amount of action, but I would say Steyn has now stepped up to take the starting 10 jersey.
RM: Tales is usually the starter, but I'd imagine he will play second fiddle now Carter is there.
Oyannax: No idea with Urdipilletta moving, Lespanas will probably be ahead of Weepu at 10 actually...
Bordeaux: French starting 10

The are all teams in the Heineken Cup, very few French guys getting game time at 10..

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Has France greatly underperformed though? Havn't they always been a team of ups and downs while havingit in them to beat anyone on the day? I don't think that much has changed. In my memory they have never been higher than say 5th in the world on a consistent basis and the fact that Wales and Ireland are above them speaks as much to the strides made by those nations than a perception of France taking a nose dive.

In addition to the issues the posters above mentioned that might be holding back French test rugby (long season, poor coaching and little support for the test structures) I'd also say that the game itself has changed in the pro era and that defenses are just so much more accurate that those length of the field hand to hand tries are (mostly) a thing of the past and adds to a perception of French rugby havin lost it's attacking verve.

Well from the year 2000-2015 France has won five Six Nations (so a third). Four of which came between 2002-2007 (all of which were under current France coach Bernard Laporte). Since 2007, France have won only 1 six nations championship in 2010. One has to argue that that is under performance considering the talent France has at their disposal. You could argue Wales and Ireland have just improved dramatically - but the resources at the WRU and IRFU have is no where near that of France. So yes, I think they have very much underperformed - and I don't include Lievremont's tenure a success at all.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm afraid the number of teams the French league have at that top tier - doesn't prevent French players being blocked for the national team.

As an example which is often used is fly half. Here is next years fly halves. I have ranked the teams based on their table finish from last season - with newly promoted clubs at the bottom. I have ranked the players in order of who I imagine is most likely to start, some taken from stats, some from a bit of guess work (sorry to the French posters who will probably rip my assessment apart).


Toulon: Matt Giteau (AUS), Quade Cooper (AUS), Freddy Michelak (FRA)
Clermont: Brock James (AUS), Camille Lopez (FRA), Patricio Fernandez (ARG)
Toulouse: Toby Flood (ENG), Luke McAlister (NZ)
Stade Francais: Morne Steyn (SA), Jules Plisson (FRA), Meyer Bosman (SA)
Racing 92: Daniel Carter (NZ), Remi Tales (FRA), Benjamin Dambielle (FRA)
Oyannax: Nicky Robinson (Wales), Piri Weepu (NZ), Regis Lespanas (FRA)
Bordeaux Begles: Lionel Bauxis (FRA), Pierre Bernard (FRA), Romain Lonca (FRA)
Montpellier: Francois Trihn-Duc (FRA), Dimitri Catrakillis (SA), Ben Lucus (AUS), Llian Perraux (FRA)
Stade Rochelais: Fabien Fortassan (FRA), Jean-Pascal Barraque (FRA), Zack Holmes (AUS)
Brive: Thomas Laranjiera (FRA), Roman Sola (FRA), Anderson Neilson (FRA)
Pau: Colin Slade (NZ), Brandon Fajardo (FRA)
Castras: Benjamín María Urdapilleta (ARG), Daniel Kirkpatrick (NZ), Francois Fontaine (FRA)
Agen: Burton Francis (SA), Jacob Botica (NZ), Batista Guemes (FRA)
Grenoble: Gillies Bosch (FRA), Jonathan Wisniekski (FRA)

That's 19 fly halves. What is more interesting is the log jam of foreign fly halves playing in the higher ranked teams.

Toulon: Michelak is barely going to be used to 10
Clermont: Lopez will get reasonable gametime - probably start over Brock James
Toulouse: Unless Jean-Marc Doussain starts being used at 10, it's all Flood and McAlister
Stade: Plisson will probably see a reasonable amount of action, but I would say Steyn has now stepped up to take the starting 10 jersey.
RM: Tales is usually the starter, but I'd imagine he will play second fiddle now Carter is there.
Oyannax: No idea with Urdipilletta moving, Lespanas will probably be ahead of Weepu at 10 actually...
Bordeaux: French starting 10

The are all teams in the Heineken Cup, very few French guys getting game time at 10..

By the same logic, then Welsh or Scottish players aren't getting enough game time either as they have fewer teams. There's a dozen French fly halves there who will be featuring in the Champions Cup. Scotland only have one team in the tournament, Wales only two. There will be more French players each week playing in 14 teams, than there will be Welsh, Scottish, Italian or Irish in the Pro12.

It's a complete myth it's all that harmful to the French team, as by the same argument the lack of Welsh players playing week in week out is too then. And anyway, competition for shirts is a good thing anyway. Keeps standards up. Would love to have lots of those players in Wales where the overseas restriction too tight. There's little benefit to the Welsh national team in restrictions meaning the Dragons for example play Dorian Jones 10. He's never going to play for Wales, so it makes no difference whatsoever if a foreigner comes in.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Conversely, if there was a Frenchman filling a slot in 12 or 13 teams, then the quality would probably be inadequate for the preparation of internationals, particularly when you consider the importance of reserves given the length of the season and attritional nature of the game.

It is abundantly clear that international rugby is not decided by who has the biggest player pool, or England and France would be dominant. Having ten, seven, or five or four (or even three) available starting slots for each eligible player every weekend does not make a decisive difference to the chances of a nation having international success.

So, no, the influx of foreign players isn't the major factor. It's even possible the negatives are outweighed by the positives.

I follow the points that you're making, but I think you're underestimating the effect that bringing in a lot of overseas players has on the development of home grown talent. Take someone like Jack Nowell at Exeter - after a couple of seasons DRd out and playing A League, he got his chance with Chiefs, seized it with both hands and the rest is history. Had he been playing for a team with a much larger budget, there's every chance that when the chance came along, the chance would have fallen to another more experienced squad player or a loan / new signing.

Slight tangent, but still relevant, can someone explain how the French youth development system works please?

 

[smartcooky]

... there are quotas in place on number of foreigners etc...

Mourad Boudjellal mustn't have gotten that memo...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Mourad Boudjellal mustn't have gotten that memo...

And Jake White...