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Game of Thrones Discussion [SPOILERS]

Hanley!

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I've always been of the opinion that Dany was a tyrant and a couple of seasons ago I would have told you that the best way to end the story would be with her as the villain. So it's disappointing that this is what I wanted and it still sucks. Because they didn't adequately tell the story of her getting to this point, and her motivations didn't really make sense in the episode. Her switch has also come too late in the story, and too abruptly for it to be satisfying.

I don't think she's supposed to have just gone crazy. There was plenty of foreshadowing earlier in the show that she was ruthless and power hungry and willing to sacrifice the lives of her subjects to get what she wants. And completely changing someone's character at the last minute is terrible storytelling anyway, so I don't like the idea that she was genuinely decent before, but she's suddenly a monster now.

The idea should be that this was always in her, but the other characters just hadn't figured it out yet. They did a terrible job of getting that across. Dany destroyed her own city and killed thousands of her own subjects for the sake of a tantrum. If she was that cartoonishly evil, then the rest of the cast are all complete morons for not having seen it sooner. Though in fairness Jon and Tyrion (and most of the rest of the cast) have been proper idiots for this whole season anyway.

A better way to tell this story would have been to put Dany in a situation where she can win the war quicker and send a stronger message to the other houses, but many more innocents would have to die as a result. Let Tyrion and Jon watch her prioritise her convenience and her ego over the lives of the people that she's always claimed she wanted to liberate. To me, that sort of narcissism is consistent with Dany's character over the course of the show. Whereas her tantrum from the last episode was more ham-fistedly evil than anything the Night King ever did.
 

Jabby

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who defeated the Dothraki horde on an open field?
 

Tigs Man

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It was fine not great but fine. I don't think you can really satisfactorially finish a massively sprawling story.
 

Tigs Man

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Again I just hated the dialogue, and disagree that it was anything close to fine.

"who has a better story than Bran"
"Tyrion punishment will be to have the second most important job in Westeros"
"It's called a song of Ice and Fire" (Or there and back again a Night's Watch tale by Jon Snow)
etc etc

The cinematography gorgeous though.
 

ncurd

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TBH I think Tyrion's 'punishment' was more "seriously Grey Worm stop being a cock even though you don't have one"

The "who has a better story than Bran" whilst heavy handed is more "this is ******** we are going to sell because everyone else is a terrible choice"

Yeah title drops are terrible I wish they hadn't done that.
 

Jabby

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about as good as can be expected

Wonder if Arya will get a spin off

Is it weird that bran is king when his house is no longer in the kingdom?
 

The Alpha Bro

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Fair play to the Stark kids - apart from the ded ones and now that Bran seems fair happy to be Bran again - they done good for themselves...


Utter shite that season was as a story, Simpson's-esque drop off.
 

Jabby

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They could have done ten episodes and fleshed out a few things a bit better
 

Groundhog

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Haven’t watched it but the leaks were bang on. Not in a huge rush to watch it either. Agree with Tigs that this ending is nowhere near fine. It's peak **** and they couldn't have done a worse job. Would be interested in a prequel (especially the long night one), but this ending definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Still love the universe, but this season literally had two locations....
 

ncurd

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Seriously guys if your gonna say it was **** say why you think it was.
 

The Alpha Bro

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Seriously guys if your gonna say it was **** say why you think it was.
Accepting that the NK wasn't more than a subplot they had to do more with the throne.

What's really changed from S1 in that regard?
- Theres still a king, a hand, master of coin etc...
- At best the throne will be in good hands for one generation, then another fight is on. In all likelihood some **** would take advantage of a cripple and a dwarf being the king and hand to stage a revolution. Bran is also just a massively unsatisfactory king, his character was never about the seven kingdoms alone but rather all of Westeros, the children of the forest are toast and the old Gods will likely only fade from memory further.
- 99% of the population still don't matter a shite, I could go on.

Apart from Sansa declaring that the North will go their own way it's the same **** with different faces that we saw with Robert Barratheon and Ned Stark in season 1.

Ultimately I'd ask what was the show about? The Night King ended up being more or less nothing and good didn't exactly triumph bad, the corruptible system stayed in place and is as vulnerable as ever. A hell of a journey that never really went anywhere, some significant changes were required to make it any way satisfying imo.
 

ncurd

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Right so now we can have discussion (sorry it just frustrates me when people vent and don't explain themselves).

So on the Night King, I 100% have never been interested in that plot in the books or TV show. I like Jon as a character as well as most Wall characters but yeah its always had a ring of fantasy trope I'm not really interested in.

As to it all being the same.....true but this is ultimately based on the War of the Roses for inspiration and that essentially ended in bigger all changing 1-2 generations of relative calm followed by more turmoil. Thats the politics of the age and the day and what the show tried to emphasise is more important. This is why Ned dies back in Season 1, why the red wedding occurs etc. because being a good guy and morally correct doesn't make you win. The guy with money and army wins.

I don't think the show was ever about changing the status quo it was about how brutal succession wars can actually be, how people vye their way to power then lose it and when the dust settles nothing really changes because nothing ever does.

The question is have you been watching a Fantasy Epic TV show which takes inspiration from history in which you have typical winners and losers or have you been watching a Historical Drama with Fantasy elements? I've always felt it was the latter.


Its also why I say there can't be a satisfactory 'ending' because history teaches us that doesn't really happen.
 

big ginger 8

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I actually quite enjoyed it it’s a satisfactory enough ending for me and felt there was a lot of Martin in this. Quite liked Tyrion’s speech about Dany thinking herself right.

I never got the impression that there was going to be a massive system overhaul. Martin is big in his historical realism and that’s not how history worked. Agreeing that a council will choose each monarch and allowing a kingdom to secede is pretty much as big a change as could be expected.

Overall not mad on this season but think this episode was the best of it and given it can’t rewrite the rest of the season and make it more about the NK I’m much happier than I thought I’d be.
 

The Alpha Bro

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Right so now we can have discussion (sorry it just frustrates me when people vent and don't explain themselves).

So on the Night King, I 100% have never been interested in that plot in the books or TV show. I like Jon as a character as well as most Wall characters but yeah its always had a ring of fantasy trope I'm not really interested in.

As to it all being the same.....true but this is ultimately based on the War of the Roses for inspiration and that essentially ended in bigger all changing 1-2 generations of relative calm followed by more turmoil. Thats the politics of the age and the day and what the show tried to emphasise is more important. This is why Ned dies back in Season 1, why the red wedding occurs etc. because being a good guy and morally correct doesn't make you win. The guy with money and army wins.

I don't think the show was ever about changing the status quo it was about how brutal succession wars can actually be, how people vye their way to power then lose it and when the dust settles nothing really changes because nothing ever does.

The question is have you been watching a Fantasy Epic TV show which takes inspiration from history in which you have typical winners and losers or have you been watching a Historical Drama with Fantasy elements? I've always felt it was the latter.


Its also why I say there can't be a satisfactory 'ending' because history teaches us that doesn't really happen.
I was never looking for happy ever after, that would have been cheap. I think considering how heavily character driven the show was, developing Bran into an insanely wise character, giving Sansa a first hand view of everything wrong with the 7 kingdoms and making her very intelligent and keeping Tyrion alive and very aware of the mistakes he and others have made and for them to more or less be happy with maintaining the status quo from before does not feel believable at all for me. With the exception of the Cleganes and Dany (and even her arc was sloppy) I don't feel any of the characters stayed true to their arc and/or were finished well this season. I'd have been happier had it ended the same way except the council rejected Bram as king for one of the old guards and Tyrion and Jon were exciled or something, that would have been a better "nothing changes" finish.
 

ncurd

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Isn't that the bit with Sam though "hey wouldn't democracy be great!" and he just gets laughed at because that is the world. So Tyrion goes okay well how about Lords gets the vote and lets go for the guy least objectionable that's here.

Honestly I'd prefer Queen Sansa as a better ending.....but thats a minor quibble. In some ways Queen of the North feels a little bit out of whack for her thought she was always destined to be a Littlefinger type being the true power rather than the face.

I felt Jon and Arya were true to who they were.

Lena Headey is probably the person who should be most upset it was like they had no idea what to with her.
 

Tigs Man

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I don't think anyone was really expecting a happy ending, and I don't think anyone on here has mention about "Winners"

The lack of time investment in the smaller houses throughout the show really told in the Council scene, which I really didn't like.
For a prisoner Tyrion had a lot of sway especially for someone who made a **** ton of mistakes for both sides.
Like how was Grey Worm being a cock? Tyrion was traitor to them why wouldn't he be hostile towards him?

End of the day D+D used GOT as a stepping stone to the film industry (Got Star Wars prob has eyes on MCU also), once they landed it, the show felt like they wanted to be done ASAP especially when HBO was fine budget and more episodes wise.
They gutted characters like Stannis to give Jon more story for Season 6+7 and then cut Jon for season 8 basically it just seemed so pointless.
 

ncurd

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I don't think anyone was really expecting a happy ending, and I don't think anyone on here has mention about "Winners"

The lack of time investment in the smaller houses throughout the show really told in the Council scene, which I really didn't like.
For a prisoner Tyrion had a lot of sway especially for someone who made a **** ton of mistakes for both sides.
Like how was Grey Worm being a cock? Tyrion was traitor to them why wouldn't he be hostile towards him?

End of the day D+D used GOT as a stepping stone to the film industry (Got Star Wars prob has eyes on MCU also), once they landed it, the show felt like they wanted to be done ASAP especially when HBO was fine budget and more episodes wise.
They gutted characters like Stannis to give Jon more story for Season 6+7 and then cut Jon for season 8 basically it just seemed so pointless.
I dunno about gutting Stannis show dealt with him roughly some point books got to.

Yeah I'm not happy with Dorne's treatment overall but thats issues going back quite a few seasons.
I don't think the Westerosi really see Tyrion as a traitor he's more a PoW and holds some sway and is essentially in charge of Casterley Rock.
In the grand scheme of things, Grey Worm is being a cock they are trying to negotiate peace and he's worried about one guy who freed a prisoner who is now dead anyway. Its petty and not worth fuighting over.
 

Tigs Man

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Disagree the book stannis was massively different to TV Stannis in my eyes.

I don't think Grey Worm was that bothered by peace though, Tyrion committed Treason against the Queen he would die to protect because she gave him his life back plus the added fact that he is part of a family that cause him to lose show much of that life he had.
 
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