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General Concussion thread

die_mole

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If you don't have apple news just google Siobhan Cattigan Times.
I think these are the types of stories that will end up in lawsuits that have merit (and an awful lot of merit in this case). This isn't early NFL where the league was hiding from the players just how dangerous the game was, I think the assumption of risk is well known. Rather, it will be the individual cases where teams sent players back out on the field when they were at heightened risk and then something terrible happened.

What the SRU is accused of here is absolutely shocking. I understand that it was an important game but there is a huge difference between strong arming a player into toughing out a hamstring injury and playing through a serious head knock.
 

Which Tyler

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Agreed, the rules have generally been based on the best available evidence, and the consensus opinions of experts.

It's where the rules were in place, and ignored that unions / clubs are really open for litigation.
 

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If that article is true, the SRU and all concerned, need a good sort out. Clearly the girl had a serious head injury and the duty of care shown to her was non-existent.
It wasn’t even as though it was a local club failing to do its duty, it was the International side.
Shocking and a wholly unnecessary outcome, in my opinion.
 

Old Hooker

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If that article is true, the SRU and all concerned, need a good sort out. Clearly the girl had a serious head injury and the duty of care shown to her was non-existent.
It wasn’t even as though it was a local club failing to do its duty, it was the International side.
Shocking and a wholly unnecessary outcome, in my opinion.
Agreed. Two sides to every story of course but the way it reads is shocking.
 

Reiser99

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Surely it has to be more than a box ticking exercise. Surely they have to show they have properly informed them of the dangers and risks etc, so that the players fully understand the repercussions.
 

Which Tyler

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Which is the aspect Rugby HAS been good at.

What we've been terrible at, is adhering to our own rules and regulations
 

Old Hooker

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35 amateur players have joined the action. That could be the tip of an iceberg.
 
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RedruthRFC

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35 amateur players have joined the action. That could be the tip of an iceberg.
This has been my worry for a long time based on the experiences of a family member who played at the top level within the semi-pro game. I've watched him play on after a knock that saw him collapse after getting back to his feet and once stopped my post-match debrief with him so that he could throw up on the sideline. The first occasion was late in the calendar and he commented that it had been a "pretty good season" as it was only his third. Admittedly both of these incidents took place before concussion had its current profile, but on both occasions, doctors stood idly by and did nothing while I watched from the sideline worried about the danger that I was aware of having read about the likes of Hape and Jackman.

While the training load is lower in the semi-pro game, the impacts in games aren't much fewer / lighter. Meanwhile, the medical care and clubs' diligence in their duty of care is lightyears away.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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If you don't have apple news just google Siobhan Cattigan Times.
I think these are the types of stories that will end up in lawsuits that have merit (and an awful lot of merit in this case). This isn't early NFL where the league was hiding from the players just how dangerous the game was, I think the assumption of risk is well known. Rather, it will be the individual cases where teams sent players back out on the field when they were at heightened risk and then something terrible happened.

What the SRU is accused of here is absolutely shocking. I understand that it was an important game but there is a huge difference between strong arming a player into toughing out a hamstring injury and playing through a serious head knock.
I'm not one to speak up for the Scottish union but some Scottish players come out in support of the women's teams coaching staff.

 

die_mole

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I'm not one to speak up for the Scottish union but some Scottish players come out in support of the women's teams coaching staff.

yeah I've seen conflicting reports
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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yeah I've seen conflicting reports
Wow, that's pretty grotesque if one bloke has sought to represent the players without actually getting the agreement or authorisation of said players to do so - potentially misrepresenting them.
 

Reiser99

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Always going to be controversial forcing someone to do something they don't want to, but if anyone can suggest the idea, it would have to come from an ex-player suffering brain damage as a result.
 

Which Tyler

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I'd have thought the only people who could "force" the issue would be insurance companies considering the player uninsurable. Otherwise, you can heavily recommend, but ultimately informed, consenting adults have the right to make their own choices and take their own risks.

If the brain damage exceeds the threshold (wherever that would be) for a power of (medical) attorney to kick in, then that would change things.

Denying someone the right to do something harmful to themselves would be a dangerous precedent (though we do have examples from other forms of self-harm, with thresholds, but these are government mandated, and legally fraught)
 
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Old Hooker

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I'd have thought the only people who could "force" the issue would be insurance companies considering the player uninsurable. Otherwise, you can heavily recommend, but ultimately informed, consenting adults have the right to make their own choices and take their own risks.

If the brain damage exceeds the threshold (wherever that would be) for a power of (medical) attorney to kick in, then that would change things.

Denying someone the right to do something harmful to themselves would be a dangerous precedent (though we do have examples from other forms of self-harm, with thresholds, but these are government mandated, and legally fraught)
Probably very different situations for professional and amateur players? Employer duty of care type responsibilities etc.

Also this type of cumulative effect feels a very different situation to something like BASE jumping where the there’s the potential for a one off catastrophic incident.
 

Bada-Bing!

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Also for a club or union to effectively sack a player (employee) for a long term disability that they contributed to by the very nature of the sport probably comes under “unfair dismissal.”

Any player with brain damage told to stop playing would be able demand compensation.

I know what Popham is trying to get at, but any player forced to stop playing must have the proper care and financial support to go with it, which I suppose he and other players are currently fighting for.
 

die_mole

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yeah we've had college football players forced to retire due to school's not including them on the insurance after a certain amount of concussions. The players either transfer to another school or just take the scholarship and finish school.

Medical retirements in pro sports aren't non-existent. Chris Bosh of the Miami Heat had to retire due to blood clots. His contract was covered by an insurance policy.
 

Bada-Bing!

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yeah we've had college football players forced to retire due to school's not including them on the insurance after a certain amount of concussions. The players either transfer to another school or just take the scholarship and finish school.

Medical retirements in pro sports aren't non-existent. Chris Bosh of the Miami Heat had to retire due to blood clots. His contract was covered by an insurance policy.
What’s the equivalent employment law over in the States for cases of “wrongful” (contractual) and “unfair” (for an unfair reason)? Are there equivalents or is it as you say in sports contracts above much less, hence they can just sack them ?

Here I would think if insurance companies won’t pay out then it’ll be up to the club to pay out of their own business profits because they are statutorily required to. Hence why most wouldn’t unless they can rely on insurance. But then premiums are just gonna rocket.
 

die_mole

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What’s the equivalent employment law over in the States for cases of “wrongful” (contractual) and “unfair” (for an unfair reason)? Are there equivalents or is it as you say in sports contracts above much less, hence they can just sack them ?

Here I would think if insurance companies won’t pay out then it’ll be up to the club to pay out of their own business profits because they are statutorily required to. Hence why most wouldn’t unless they can rely on insurance. But then premiums are just gonna rocket.
it's up to the terms of the contract and the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the player's union and the league.

Almost all basketball players have guaranteed contracts so if they get hurt to the point the NBA won't let them play anymore they'll get the rest of their contract from somebody.

NFL depends on the contracts. Good players can get injury guarantees but most players can be cut for whatever reason. There is very little guaranteed money. There are disability benefits that the NFL has created for all the players crippled by the game.
 

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