Greatest All Blacks XV of All Time

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Always an interesting discussion.
While it's not fair to compare the playing ability of players across different generations, as rugby has evolved so much, you can still compare the greatness of players across different time periods based on the impact that they had during their time, their achievements and their legacy.
Obviously this is very subjective, so I'm curious to see other peoples' opinions. This is my opinion.

1. Ken Gray (Honorable M - Tony Woodcock, Craig Dowd)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (Honorable M - Dane Coles, Keven Mealamu)
3. Carl Heyman (Honorable M - Wilson Whineray, Olo Brown)
4. Brodie Retallick (Honorable M - Ian Jones, Stan Meads, Andy Haden, Sam Whitelock)
5. Colin Meads
6. Ian Kirkpatick (Honorable M - Jerry Collins, Maurice Brownlie, Jerome Kaino)
7. Richie McCaw (Honorable M - Michael Jones, Waka Nathan, Josh Kronfield, Kel Tremain)
8. Zinzan Brooke (Honorable M - Buck Shelford, Brian Lochore, Keiran Read)
9. Sid Going (Honorable M - Aaron Smith, Graham Bachop, Justin Marshall)
10. Dan Carter (Honorable M - Bert Cooke, Andrew Merthens, Grant Fox)
11. Jonah Lomu (Honorable M - Brian Williams, Stu Wilson, Joe Rockococo, Julian Savea, Ron Jarden)
12. Ma'a Nonu (Honorable M - Walter Little, Pat Walsh)
13. Bruce Robertson (Honorable M - Frank Bunce, Tana Umaga, Conrad Smith)
14. John Kirwan (Honorable M - Jeff Wilson, )
15. Christian Cullen (Hounourable M - Don Clarke, George Nepia, Bob Scott, Mils Muliaina)

A lot of names to sort through, some tough omissions, especially in the loose forwards and midfield, but I'm happy with this side

 

[Lancashire Nick]

I wouldn't argue too much with anyone on that list except ............... I'd have to find a place for Michael Jones.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not arguing at all, but maybe a bit harsh on Conrad and Ben that Aaron is the only Smith with a HM? Not too many other "Greatest Evers" would ignore their second most capped of all time or a world cup winning captain either!

 

[Groundhog]

Shout out to Howlett.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Those honourable mentions are depressing... Apart from 13, we have Garry Ringrose.

 

[munstermuffin]

How isnt Andy Goode not there?

 

[Groundhog]

How isnt Andy Goode not there?

Double negative Muff!!! That's it, I'm ringing your mammy and having you in for Summer classes. You can cancel that trip to Kilkee.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Not arguing at all, but maybe a bit harsh on Conrad and Ben that Aaron is the only Smith with a HM? Not too many other "Greatest Evers" would ignore their second most capped of all time or a world cup winning captain either!

Fair call. In hindsight I probs should've added Conrad as an HM, as his longevity and consistently good performances were exceptional, as well as his combo with Nonu. I just didn't feel he had the same impact as the others. As for Ben, he was close too, but I didn't want to over extend an already large group of full-backs. He's also only been first choice fullback for a couple years, and while he's been excelent, I didn't think he's quite done enough yet to be considered an all time great.
You're right about Mealamu though, I should definitely have included him alongside Coles. I'll admit that I (somehow) forgot about him when I was thinking of names, but he does deserve to be there.
And I don't really think David Kirk was in the same caliber as the others. Sure he captained a WC winning side, but he was never a standout player and that WC is the only real notable thing from his AB career.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Good list Caitlyn Jenner. I particularly like your criteria for inclusion. People seem to struggle with this principle, but it's then only way that lists like this will ever be anything meaningful. My phone pointed me to this article:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/87934398/our-experts-pick-their-greatest-all-blacks-xv

yesterday. What struck me in particular is the number of pundits who left out names that perennially appear high up on "greatest ever All Black" lists, thanks in no small part to a refusal / inability to use the kind of selection criteria you used (most notably Richie and Meads).

I understand that it's hard to leave Jones out, there seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether he should play 7 on merit or whether he would make it in at 6 on the same basis. Thoughts anyone.

It's always easier to pick holes in other people's lists than picking your own, I don't profess to have the knowledge to make up my own list, so am only able to do the former. On that basis, Robin Brooke before Colin Meads (and many others)? Really?

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Good list Caitlyn Jenner. I particularly like your criteria for inclusion. People seem to struggle with this principle, but it's then only way that lists like this will ever be anything meaningful. My phone pointed me to this article:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/87934398/our-experts-pick-their-greatest-all-blacks-xv

yesterday. What struck me in particular is the number of pundits who left out names that perennially appear high up on "greatest ever All Black" lists, thanks in no small part to a refusal / inability to use the kind of selection criteria you used (most notably Richie and Meads).

I understand that it's hard to leave Jones out, there seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether he should play 7 on merit or whether he would make it in at 6 on the same basis. Thoughts anyone.

It's always easier to pick holes in other people's lists than picking your own, I don't profess to have the knowledge to make up my own list, so am only able to do the former. On that basis, Robin Brooke before Colin Meads (and many others)? Really?

Thanks. I agree that this criteria principle is not difficult to grasp, and is in my opinion a fair one, yet people seem to so often get stuck up on the issue of comparing generations and consequently disregard the concept, which frustrates me. That article is a prime example, as you said, it seems many of them struggle to grasp what constitutes a great player and/or they refuse to consider players whom they have not seen, which I don't think is fair.

And yea, it was really hard to leave Jones out, and I was tempted to put him at 6. But he was a 7, and while he finished up on the blindside, by that time he was past his best and had already built his legendary reputation as an openside. He never built that rep as a blindside, so it didn't feel right to put him there.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

You've got Cullen there, so that's a good start.
I agree with most except i would dropp Merthens as FH and included David Kirk in the SH HM list. The former is a demand, the latter is personal taste.

Personally i've got so many fond memories of Spencer, but i understand he wasn't the most consistent player, to put it lightly.

 

[ALJ]

Personally i've got so many fond memories of Spencer, but i understand he wasn't the most consistent player, to put it lightly. [/COLOR]

You mean Carlos Spencer? He was just the ultimate flat track bully wasn't he? Great behind a dominant pack, awful under pressure.


More generally, I don't have nearly enough knowledge of AB history to put together my own side - it all looks pretty impressive but, like others, I'm surprised to see M Jones and Conrad Smith omitted completely.
Also quite surprised that Grant Fox hasn't had a mention.

Must be nice to have those sorts of decisions to make :0)

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

You mean Carlos Spencer? He was just the ultimate flat track bully wasn't he? Great behind a dominant pack, awful under pressure.


More generally, I don't have nearly enough knowledge of AB history to put together my own side - it all looks pretty impressive but, like others, I'm surprised to see M Jones and Conrad Smith omitted completely.
Also quite surprised that Grant Fox hasn't had a mention.

Must be nice to have those sorts of decisions to make :0)

Didn't completely omit Jones, he's the first honorable mention for the opensides and was the hardest person to leave out of the XV

 

[Icemn]

Culley is there so I'm happy

There has been a fair share of greatest AB lists...

Who is brave enough to draw up a Worst AB list of all time... (If any)

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Surprised no HMs for Owen Franks, Sam Whitelock, Kaino and Bin Smuth.

 

[ManusXavi]

1. Kees Meeuws 2. Dane Coles 3. Carl Hayman 4. Brodie Rotalic 5. Ian Jones 6. Kieran Read 7. Josh Kronfield 8. Zinzan Brooke 9. Aaron Smith 10. Dan Carter 11. Jonah Lomu 12. Tana Umaga. 13. Conrad Smith 14. Jeff Wilson 15. Ben Smith.
Coach Steve Hansen

 

[The Jones Boy]

1. Craig Dowd
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Heyman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Brad Thorne (Nod to Pinetree)
6. Kaino (Nod to Alan Whetton)
7. Michael Jones (Nod to Graham Mourie and the great McCaw)
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Super Sid Going
10. Dan Carter (Nod to Frano Botica)
11. Terry Wright (Nod to Jonah and Grant Batty)
12. Ma'a Nonu (Nod to Bill Osborne)
13. Bruce Robertson (Nod to Smokin' Joe and Craig Innes)
14. JK (Nod to Brian Williams and Dougie Howlett)
15. Don Clarke

 

[Larksea]

I really don't know about mixing old school players with modern professional players.

I mean for example, Meads is a great of his time but he would struggle at NPC level today. Where Whitelock & Retalick are arguably the two best locks in world rugby right now and without a doubt the best locking combo in the world over the last ~5-6 years? To be as dominant as they are in such a competitive professional modern arena, IMO they are they best locking combination the sport has seen.

I recon out of respect for both sides of the argument it makes sense to make two teams. One pre 1995 and one 1995 on.

Personally I think there are 3 main eras of All Black Rugby. pre the The Classic era -86, the transition to professional era (87 - 03), and modern Professional era (04 -)

The Classic era prior to world cups where Test matches and tours were everything. Rugby was a game or a sport but not a profession.
The Transition era, the world cup arrived and south africa came back into the picture at the start of this era most players also had some other job by the end most were just pro Rugby players.
modern Era, Basically came with Grahame Henry being appointed head coach

its even hard to compare between the 3 eras but the best players from 95 were still good into the modern era so least so it makes a good cutoff point for classic vs modern.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Sid Going would have been amazing in the modern era.
He was strong, quick, had a mega pass and could play as an extra flanker when needed.
Don Scott could kick half way around the globe with a rugby ball that was misshapen, took on water and became 'waterlogged' and in knee deep mud wearing a square toe wooden clog.
Bruce Robertson was part ghost. He became ethereal when waltzing through enemy lines. he would have relished the opportunity to play today.
Mourie is the original modern openside flanker. Standing off the ruck watching the opposite first five just waiting to race out of the gates and belt him into the stands. He would have loved to play today.
Grant Batty was Shane Williams with attitude.
Quality at the top level transcends the ages.
Give them the diet, the fitness regime and the freedom of the modern game and these lads would give you back everything in spades.
With humility and a good old fashioned sense of humour.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Like with any GOAT debates you're comparing players to how they did in their era. So pointless bringing up that Meads would struggle at NPC level today. It's how he stood out in his own time compared to how Retallick and Whitelock compared to their contemporaries.