Greatest All Blacks XV of All Time

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Like with any GOAT debates you're comparing players to how they did in their era. So pointless bringing up that Meads would struggle at NPC level today. It's how he stood out in his own time compared to how Retallick and Whitelock compared to their contemporaries.

Exactly.

 

[Dizzy]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Heyman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Jerry Collins
7. Richie McCaw
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Graeme Bachop
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Tana Umaga
14. Doug Howlett
15. Christian Cullen

 

[JJFlash]

Being an ex wing forward, I take particular interest in the players mentioned above.
It was a rare privilege to watch Kel Tremain, Waka Nathan (the Panther?), Ian Kirkpatrick, Michael Jones, Josh Kronfeld (who of course, played for Leicester in the early 2000s) et al. The list is endless.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Heyman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Jerry Collins
7. Richie McCaw
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Graeme Bachop
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Tana Umaga
14. Doug Howlett
15. Christian Cullen

I like that side a lot, but there's just no way I'd ever be able to bring my self to pick Howlett. Sure he's our top test try scorer (for now), but that's because he was fortunate enough to remain injury free during a period when we didn't have many other world-class wingers, and so he inevitably picked up a lot of tries without really being that great of a player. No doubt he had the essentials for a winger with his pace, work rate etc. and was very good at what he did, but when you look at the caliber of guys like Kirwan, Wilson, Brian Williams etc, I don't think he really compares. If these players were around in the same era, I think that Howlett would be well down the pecking order.

Can't really argue too much with any of the other selections though...

 

[Makos]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Dane Coles
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Michael Jones
7. Richie McCaw
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Sid Going
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Conrad Smith
13. Ma'a Nonu
14. John Kirwan
15. Ben Smith

I feel that Nonu and Smith need to be together. Both of them complimented each other perfectly & are the greatest centre pairing in the history of the game.

Jones, McCaw and Brooke would be unstoppable in the loose with Retallick & Meads. Meads & McCaw are the greatest players of all time.

Choosing between Coles & Fitzpatrick was a difficult decision. I went with Coles because he's such a danger with the ball in hand.

14 was tough as well. I rate John Kirwan & Jeff Wilson ahead of Howlett, who I rate highly also. Gave JK the nod, he was amazing.

I chose Ben over Christian Cullen simply because of Ben's exploits on the wing & his tremendous leadership qualities. He's won a Super Rugby competition with the Highlanders, which is remarkable. But you can add Cullen and not lose much. Both of them are worthy of the honour.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Dane Coles
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Michael Jones
7. Richie McCaw
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Sid Going
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Conrad Smith
13. Ma'a Nonu
14. John Kirwan
15. Ben Smith

I feel that Nonu and Smith need to be together. Both of them complimented each other perfectly & are the greatest centre pairing in the history of the game.

Jones, McCaw and Brooke would be unstoppable in the loose with Retallick & Meads. Meads & McCaw are the greatest players of all time.

Choosing between Coles & Fitzpatrick was a difficult decision. I went with Coles because he's such a danger with the ball in hand.

14 was tough as well. I rate John Kirwan & Jeff Wilson ahead of Howlett, who I rate highly also. Gave JK the nod, he was amazing.

I chose Ben over Christian Cullen simply because of Ben's exploits on the wing & his tremendous leadership qualities. He's won a Super Rugby competition with the Highlanders, which is remarkable. But you can add Cullen and not lose much. Both of them are worthy of the honour.

Hard to argue with any of that. I think that on paper your side is actually a better rugby team than mine, with the balance and combinations, as well as Jones in the loose and Coles at hooker. I didn't consider combos, I was just going for the greatest player position by position, regardless of how they'd fit together, which is also why I didn't go with Jones at 6, as he built his legend at 7. And I went for Fitzy because of all he did for the ABs and how much of an influence he had in his time, which made him more of a great imo, even if he wasn't as good a player as Coles. I still think you've gotta go with Cully though, the man is probably the best attacking player we've ever had and is an absolute legend, and I don't think Smith is on that level (yet).
Also, I'm assuming you meant to put Nonu and Smith the other way around? lol

 

[Makos]

Hard to argue with any of that. I think that on paper your side is actually a better rugby team than mine, with the balance and combinations, as well as Jones in the loose and Coles at hooker. I didn't consider combos, I was just going for the greatest player position by position, regardless of how they'd fit together, which is also why I didn't go with Jones at 6, as he built his legend at 7. And I went for Fitzy because of all he did for the ABs and how much of an influence he had in his time, which made him more of a great imo, even if he wasn't as good a player as Coles. I still think you've gotta go with Cully though, the man is probably the best attacking player we've ever had and is an absolute legend, and I don't think Smith is on that level (yet).
Also, I'm assuming you meant to put Nonu and Smith the other way around? lol

Yeah for sure, Fitzy is probably the right choice when making these kind of lists.
Yep, it was mean to be 12.Nonu 13.Smith

 

[mania]

good list . my changes
6 - jerry. he brought fear to the oppn just by being on the field
8 - buck shelford.
9 - graham bachop, cleanest pass i've ever seen. was the fittest AB in his time and kept fox in line and stopped him form kicking the ball away all the time.
11 - i'd have goldie on that wing ahead of jonah. wilson did more work. jonah imo was luggage when he came to canes
13 - i'd go with bunce as his defence was immense, then conrad
14 - bj williams

agree with cullen. my all time favourite player

 

[Bob]

good list . my changes
6 - jerry. he brought fear to the oppn just by being on the field
8 - buck shelford.
9 - graham bachop, cleanest pass i've ever seen. was the fittest AB in his time and kept fox in line and stopped him form kicking the ball away all the time.
11 - i'd have goldie on that wing ahead of jonah. wilson did more work. jonah imo was luggage when he came to canes
13 - i'd go with bunce as his defence was immense, then conrad
14 - bj williams

agree with cullen. my all time favourite player

How the hell can you leave out Lomu? He had more influence than any player ever! I know it's your opinion but I don't see how Lomu cannot be considered our greatest left winger. He did extraordinary things. I put up there with McCaw, Meads and Carter as 1 of NZ's 4 greatest players of all time

 

[mania]

How the hell can you leave out Lomu?

yeah nah. jonah was the most sensational but he wasnt the best. he scored some amazing tries, but only against the english. he didnt score the most tries.
never scored against the boks who never really fell for his star status. chesterWilliams in his book said they never discussed jonah at their trainings. they were too busy keeping an eye on what goldie and cullen were doing.
jonah was the epitome of all brawn and no (rugby) brains. he never worked to improve his craft. never learnt to tackle, i think i saw him put in 2 tackles in his career. never learned to turn and chase, or catch high balls.
never learnt to insert himself into the game. he would seagull on his wing waiting for the ball to come to him.
i'd go to ABs and hurricanes game and watch him and he would stand around a lot doing nothing.
jonahs latter half of his ABs career he rested on his laurels was selected on reputation imo. we now know it was because of his health.
just my opinion. if i had seen evidence that he worked on his game to be better then i would be a fan.
jonah was the best offensive winger of all time to make the ABs, probably the greatest ABs offensive player.
solely my opinion and willing to be shouted down, which i have been all these years, but its how i feel.

 

[mania]

I'd ever be able to bring my self to pick Howlett.
when you look at the caliber of guys like Kirwan,

howlett was one of the hardest working wingers out there. he inserted himself as much as possible. every touch finder he caught he would go for a quick throw in and work it back up field. as a coach i value a player of his calibre who is always trying to make plays.
he had a huge engine and scored so many tries because he was always backing up.
ok i'm gonna get lynched again but kirwins latter career wasnt that great, imo. upto 1990 he was awesome, but after that he was missing a lot. we now know it was because of his depression but at the time i thought he was just being lazy and avoiding work.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

IMO, when Kirwan was in the ABs, especially during his prime, he was a class above all his contemporaries. This was never the case with Howlett. I hear what you're saying with Howlett re. his work rate etc., and for sure that made him a very valuable player and a guy you'd always want on your side, but for me he never had that extra level of class to him that separated him as a truly great player. I believe Kirwan had that, and was a fantastic performer for long enough to be considered one of our 2 greatest right wingers alongside Goldie.
As for Goldie vs Kirwan, for me that was a genuine 50/50 call. I think I only ended up going with Kirwan because he is the ABs top try scorer of all time, but I'd be more than happy either way.

 

[mania]

Kirwan was a class above all his contemporaries. I think I only ended up going with Kirwan because he is the ABs top try scorer of all time

i agree kirwin was all class in his prime and incomparable, but i'd still go with goldie. who not only scored tries but created opportunities for others...mainly cullen.
top try scorer for ABs is howlett (49) , then cullen (46) and rocketMan rokocoko (46)
goldie btw is on 44.
julianSavea sits on 45

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

i agree kirwin was all class in his prime and incomparable, but i'd still go with goldie. who not only scored tries but created opportunities for others...mainly cullen.

Yup, and that's fair enough. Like I said, I'm happy either way. Can't argue against Wilson.

top try scorer for ABs is howlett (49) , then cullen (46) and rocketMan rokocoko (46)
goldie btw is on 44.
julianSavea sits on 45

That's for test matches, I'm talking about all ABs tries (including those from non-tests), because obviously tests used to be a lot less frequent, but roughly the same amount of overall matches were still played, so I think it's a bit of a fairer comparison. I know Kirwan is the ABs top overall try scorer, from memory I think he had 67, with BG Williams right behind him on 66, and then a bit of a drop off to the rest. I think Cullen was 3rd, and then the likes of Howlett, Rockococo, Savea etc. were a bit further down at about 10th.

 

[Bob]

yeah nah. jonah was the most sensational but he wasnt the best. he scored some amazing tries, but only against the english. he didnt score the most tries.
never scored against the boks who never really fell for his star status. chesterWilliams in his book said they never discussed jonah at their trainings. they were too busy keeping an eye on what goldie and cullen were doing.
jonah was the epitome of all brawn and no (rugby) brains. he never worked to improve his craft. never learnt to tackle, i think i saw him put in 2 tackles in his career. never learned to turn and chase, or catch high balls.
never learnt to insert himself into the game. he would seagull on his wing waiting for the ball to come to him.
i'd go to ABs and hurricanes game and watch him and he would stand around a lot doing nothing.
jonahs latter half of his ABs career he rested on his laurels was selected on reputation imo. we now know it was because of his health.
just my opinion. if i had seen evidence that he worked on his game to be better then i would be a fan.
jonah was the best offensive winger of all time to make the ABs, probably the greatest ABs offensive player.
solely my opinion and willing to be shouted down, which i have been all these years, but its how i feel.

To say lomu never worked on his game just sounds like ignorant hate. Idk what you have against the guy but the dude had a horrible kidney condition and was still able to be amazing. He probs had it harder than anyone, but still managed to be the most devastating player ever. Tackling wasn't his strong suit, but nobody's perfect. Take the guy for what he was - An absolute freak of nature, the most devastaing player ever seen and the greatest winger of all time

 

[mania]

sounds like ignorant hate.

think what u will. if u think its ignorant hate then you didnt read the respect i paid lomu as the most devastating offensive winger the ABs ever had.
i pointed out my opinion and that all it is. my opinion.
but hey read what you will. dont take offense because your opinion means nothing to me

 

[Ground We Won]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Michael Jones
7. Richie McCaw
8. Buck Shelford
9. Sid Going
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. John Kirwan
15. Christian Cullen

On the bank; 16. Olo Brown 17. Dane Coles 18. Owen Franks 19. Ian Jones 20. Zinzan Brooke 21. Aaron Smith 22. Grant Fox 23. Ben Smith.

^ Bloody hell, what a team. So many great names left of it as well.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Michael Jones
7. Richie McCaw
8. Buck Shelford
9. Sid Going
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. John Kirwan
15. Christian Cullen

On the bank; 16. Olo Brown 17. Dane Coles 18. Owen Franks 19. Ian Jones 20. Zinzan Brooke 21. Aaron Smith 22. Grant Fox 23. Ben Smith.

^ Bloody hell, what a team. So many great names left of it as well.

Personally that's my favourite XV that anyone else has offered up on this thread. I find myself pretty much agreeing with every selection except for Smith at 13, but even then it's hard to argue...
And you're right about the amount of greats that have been left out lol, it's crazy! Actually, just to illustrate that point, imma put together a 2nd XV to my original side... Here goes...
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Dane Coles
3. Wilson Whineray
4. Ian Jones
5. Stan Meads
6. Jerry Collins
7. Michael Jones
8. Buck Shelford
9. Graham Bachop
10. Andrew Merthens
11. Brian Williams
12. Walter Little
13. Tana Umaga
14. Jeff Wilson
15. George Nepia

Hell, could put together a 3rd and 4th XV and they'd still look just as good. There have been so many legends over the years...

 

[The Jones Boy]

Pinetree would have belted both of them onto their backside as the lineout was forming.
He would have been caught on camera and banned for a lengthy period and given up the clean modern game in a hurry.

For me, Michael Jones, the Jones Boy, will forever be not just our greatest no.7 but our greatest ever player.
I trained alongside him in the Auck University gym in the 1980's when he started his law degree and he was frighteningly strong for a no.7
I didn't know him on a personal level but I knew who he was, he was already famous, our lecture schedule must have been similar.
We would nod at each other but rarely spoke. We were there to train.
His leg press warm up was to get all the weights possible and load them onto the leg press to warm up, then he would get his mates to sit on the press, on top of the weights.
It was staggering and then you saw his leg strength on the ball and it's no surprise he was so incredible for so long.

 

[mania]

Pinetree would have belted both of them onto their backside as the lineout was forming. He would have been caught on camera and banned for a lengthy period and given up the clean modern game in a hurry.

For me, Michael Jones, the Jones Boy, will forever be not just our greatest no.7

pinetree played in a different era. people make out that pinetree was the only dirty player in history but he grew up in an environment where you had make your mark or you would be targeted all day. look at richies career where there's heaps more scrutiny yet you see how many times he was illegally targeted.

michaelJones could dunk. i met michaelJones at a hotel i was working at. i was in the elevator and he got in. i turned to him and asked if i could his shake his hand. he looked embarrassed but shook my mitt. we had a quick chat and he talked me out of putting money on him for the first scoring play. ice being ice played it down with humility and said i'd be better off putting my money on the backs as the way the game was structured forwards hardly ever got tries anymore.
silly me believed him and he went and scored the first try for that bledisloe game.