Guinness Pro 14 : Round Six : How it is developing .

[CaledonCol]

Scottish teams : Top tie was Glasgow against Cheetahs up in the clouds ! Warriors who were dreadful in both line outs and the tight proved at the end that they are the fittest squad in this competition not only coming from behind but taking the bonus point .Lovely stadium pathetic crowd !
Embra are an enigma . Coach , Richard Cockerill has got a squad of players with undoubted potential but who seldom seem to ignite when the occasion demand . Cockerill is currently lambasting Refs for their general inability at this level . One would have thought ranks will close and little to be gained on this tack !


Italian teams - Treviso and Zebre have come of age ! ,Good results for both and good news for the competition .

Irish teams : Munster seem to have lost the plot and causing grief to the hard core support . Ulster despite the glitch look to have potential whilst Leinster may well benefit from the return of the chosen few .Connacht are slipping out of contention and will struggle.

Welsh teams are , as usual, hard to beat at home . Cardiff Blues after a poor start are gelling well whilst Dragons and Ospreys must worry about the Italian resurgence . Scarlets still look the best of the Welsh challenge

SA Teams : Cheetahs strong at home but struggling in Europe whilst their compatriots will surely remain the whipping boys and showing little improvement !

Early days !

 

[munstermuffin]

Just on Munster. They haven't lost plot. Have said from start of season they would experiment and that is what they have done. Most of core support are understanding of that and I still thing we will get Top 3 in conference which is the goal

 

[saulan]

Lovely stadium pathetic crowd !
!

A big part of the problem actually is the stadium. It is simply way too big for the level of interest in the competition at this point, due most likely to rugby watching fatigue (fans would have been going to games since February) and many still getting to grips with the competition while the Rugby Championship and Currie Cup is going on.

Just to highlight how the big stadium issue creates a massively negative perception, everyone was saying that the attendance at the game between the Cheetahs and Zebre was marginally better than the poor showing at Port Elizabeth, but the stats show that the match actually had the highest attendance of any match in the Pro 14 this season! Its just that they are spread out so vastly across this massive stadium that it just seems that no one is there.

Even the worst attended match by the Kings of 3,011 people is still not the worst attendance for the tournament (it is third worst, yes, but given the complete reshuffle of the team and the poor performances and the given reasons above, it's not really surprising).

Honestly, looking at those numbers again, Cheetahs attendance figures are pretty much in line with the other clubs in the tournament, bar three of the four Irish clubs (poor Connacht).

 

[General Melchett]

I've watched most of Glasgow's games (or at least the highlights) and despite the excellent run of results in the Pro14 they're far from the finished article. The pack is suspect and too many unforced errors. Guess it takes time for the new coaching team to have an impact and they still have key players to come back but I fear a wake up call awaits against Exeter next weekend and also Leinster shortly afterwards. Gibbins is a huge plus and gives the back row a much needed boost in quality.

 

[CaledonCol]

Just on Munster. They haven't lost plot. Have said from start of season they would experiment and that is what they have done. Most of core support are understanding of that and I still thing we will get Top 3 in conference which is the goal

Have watched Munster and admired their positive approach for sometime . The season is well progressed and they seem to be missing the essentials to make an impact. Will watch with interest !

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Scottish sides: Glasgow are definitely contenders, got the Munster monkey off their back and have some big wins. Leinster, who could choke them out of a game and Scarlets who can play them at their own game are their biggest rivals to the throne. Edinburgh are bang average.

Italians: Look like they'll be battling for a European spot, Zebre are in the better conference to do this while Benetton are probably marginally the better side. They're in a process where constant improvement is the key and must last a number of years, they've started well.

Welsh: Scarlets are a contending side and I'm not really sure what the rest are, Ospreys are a shambles who are lucky they got Zebre early in the season to grab a win, Cardiff can beat bad teams while remaining wholly uncompetitive against good sides and Dragons are slightly worse than both, a shake up of sorts is needed here.

SA: Cheetahs will get a playoff spot handy, a home one could see them do damage, I have a feeling the competition might have come six months too soon for them to win the thing however and I really hope they don't to save Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian club rugby a bit of face. Kings need Currie cup players, they're at the level of an AIL side right now. (Ireland's premier amateur competition)

Irish: Leinster, good team not yet clicking, intercepts and bad defending in the wider channels are letting some easy scores in while we haven't had the centres back to attack wide ourselves. Ringrose and Lowe can't come soon enough. Ulster are a decent side playing very well, Lealeaifano is showing them that an out half is an absolute must in their potential post Jackson life while Olding has been replaced pretty soundly. Should go well until January when either a big signing must be made (have you got a mil lying around for Mad Dog IRFU?) or they'll fall off, they'd be contenders if their two best players weren't broken and in trouble with the law. Munster are experimenting apparently, its leading to the same results as last year though, when their pack is better, they win comfortably, when its worse they lose comfortably, there doesn't seem to be an in between. Connacht are bad, they can't execute basic skills consistently, have a back three that can't defend (Cian Kelleher has gotten worse in this regard so maybe its not seen as important there) Bundee Aki is trying to do it all himself, if there's no improvement I wouldn't mind seeing them raided of their good players to fix other provinces weaknesses because its not going to do TO'H, Dillane or Aki any favours in their search for caps playing with a bad team. Do you like the colour blue Bundee?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

A far more interesting season so far than last year. Conference A in particular, as I think top spot and the top 3 are all up for grabs. I'd argue any side in that Conference could still have a shot at the top 3 (although the Italians will drop off massively, like the Scots, come the international windows). That said, the top three are big favourites in Conference A though. A lot will depend on if the Cheetah's can respond to losing Petersen to the Stormers and also how they manage their player pool with many of their players in line for a 13 month season! I guess they could play their Currie Cup side over the winter months and give their starters a couple of months off.

Conference B looks a lot more routine, with Leinster and Scarlets having more than enough depth and ability to get into the playoffs, but hopefully they'll have a good race for 1st place, home advantage and the bye (which I love as an incentive for first place, just like the NFL). Ulster have looked a little off in a few matches and there may be questionmarks when Le'lifano leaves.

On specific sides, I agree with much of what is said above. I'd add that I think Connacht are a bit better than their points total suggests to me. They've pretty much been in with a sniff of victory in every match they have played but keep coming out on the wrong side. To me they are far above their poor seasons and it is testament to the strength of the Irish sides that they are the weakest of their sides.

There is upside to all of the Welsh sides in my mind. Blues were very strong in the second half to roar back against the Dragons and could become dangerous with the likes of Warburton and Anscombe back in the side. The Ospreys can't stay this bad for much longer can they? They have to kick into gear. Scarlets still seem to be missing a bit of attacking potency to me. I don't think they'll top Conference B unless they rediscover that magic of the second half of last year as they are going to be missing out on bonus points. Dragons showing real ability but a lack of depth.

The basement boys of Zebre, Benetton, Edinburgh and Dragons have all made significant progress in the right direction. None will get a sniff of the playoffs but this is huge for the league. If a bigger side sends out their second stringers away to these teams they will get pumped. If the top sides even send out their second stringers against these bottom teams at home the result won't be a foregone conclusion. A far cry from recent years.

As I said at the beginning of the season I think Glasgow will be favourites if they can get into the playoffs. They are picking up enough bonus points that they should now get in there even when they start dropping points during the international window. With some real depth at fullback and flyhalf I think they are equipped to finish behind Munster in 2nd place and then take out a couple of away wins to win it. Their pack will be punished in Europe by beefy French packs, but not so much in the Pro14 I don't think.

And finally... apparently the Pro14 definition of "neutral" in terms of ref isn't the national union that presumably pays their wages, it's that they don't come from the same "region" as a club they are refereeing. A laughable definition to me and they should quietly drop their claims of neutrality. The standard of refereeing to me has been okay, with no suggestion of bias. It'd be wrong to end a summary of the first 6 weeks on a low note though, it's been some cracking entertainment up to the European break.

 

[Groundhog]

I really am not worried for Munster yet. Were shocking in Glasgow and undercooked against Leinster before Europe which is basically tradition this year. We won't go all the way in Europe this year with our second row being as weak as it's been in the professional era, but we'll get better. We have a decent shot at the Pro 14.
Glasgow are looking really good again to my money. They really walked the walk in South Africa and beat the Cheetahs at their own game at the death. Scarlets have also looked handy, but I'm not sure they'll have the goods two years in a row. Leinster looking okay, were always gonna lift their game for Munster, but still not where they need to be. Ulster are pretty average in spots. Like us they have a few positions in the air, but their depth at 9 and 10 and some spots in the pack is just awful. Connacht look **** poor. They can lose pretty, but have never known how to win ugly. They're so frustrating to watch when they fling the ball aimlessly when resolving to hoof the ball down the field is just sometimes the best option. Carty is not a Championship player and O'Halloran and Aki are too often forced to drag them kicking and screaming into try scoring form. What on earth happened to Ospreys too. Not a million miles away from Scarlets this weekend, but still as bad as I've ever seen them start a season.
What's interesting is the fact that while the bottom feeders are predictable as ever, they do actually look capable of toppling the odd duality sides, as displayed when Ulster got burned for sending out their second string.

 

[saulan]

Just to add to my point about the Cheetahs attendance, the attendance for the Cheetahs Glasgow match was 5,964, which was the highest attendance of the three matches this weekend which weren't local derbies.

 

[profitius]

The main developments are the Italians. They've come on hugely from last season. They're a lot fitter and playing better quality rugby. The 70pt beatings they were taking last season is gone now. It's a long season ahead still but they're in a good position now.

The Cheetahs have been good at home and should be settled in now. They'll probably still find it hard adjusting to European conditions but they should get used to it more and more.

The Kings' season is probably a write off but that's not to say they won't be more competitive as the season goes on. They're certain to finish bottom but I think they can win a few games at home.

The Irish teams are strange this season. I don't think any of them are playing well so far.

Of the Welsh the Scarlets are flying and playing the best rugby in the league. Steffen Evans leads nearly all the attacking stats! Ospreys look devoid of confidence at the moment and on their worst ever run of form. Dragons have been good this season. Cardiff blues the same as ever.

The Scottish sides are playing well. Glasgow off to a flyer while Edinburgh are much improved this season although inconsistent.

 

[CaledonCol]

Just to add to my point about the Cheetahs attendance, the attendance for the Cheetahs Glasgow match was 5,964, which was the highest attendance of the three matches this weekend which weren't local derbies.

Since Glasgow moved to Scotstoun on the western suburbs of the City , they have benefitted from consistently good crowds of nearly 8 000 Atmosphere good and no empty spaces . Embra on the other hand moved from the cauldron that is Murrayfield to Myreside a Club ground near by . Crowds seem to be around 3 to 4 000 which for a rugby city like Auld Reekie I would consider poor . Success breeds success and crowds . Embra have a lot of work to do to entice the fans .

 

[profitius]

Since Glasgow moved to Scotstoun on the western suburbs of the City , they have benefitted from consistently good crowds of nearly 8 000 Atmosphere good and no empty spaces . Embra on the other hand moved from the cauldron that is Murrayfield to Myreside a Club ground near by . Crowds seem to be around 3 to 4 000 which for a rugby city like Auld Reekie I would consider poor . Success breeds success and crowds . Embra have a lot of work to do to entice the fans .

Now that they're getting full houses, what are the future plans if they want to expand?

 

[CaledonCol]

Now that they're getting full houses, what are the future plans if they want to expand?

As far as I am aware Scotstoun ( originally Scotstoun Show Ground and famed for the annual Clydesdale Horse Show ) belongs to the Glasgow City Council and I would imagine any expansion would require extensive discussion and negotiation . Not necessarily a problem as the Council are comparatively supportive having backed the laying of the all weather pitch despite mutterings from the Athletic Authorities who also used the facilities .

 

[Amiga500]

Would they ever consider moving to another ground (where there are no running tracks around the pitch). Be that Firhill, Lesser Hampden or elsewhere?

 

[CaledonCol]

Would they ever consider moving to another ground (where there are no running tracks around the pitch). Be that Firhill, Lesser Hampden or elsewhere?

lARGER CAPACITY
I played (many many moons ago !) at Scotstoun pre current development when the local team Hyndland FP were the incumbents . It was pretty basic and ,as I said before , in those days the Clydesdales had clear preference at their annual show ! It is now a Leisure Centre and things have moved on dramatically . They now have stands on all sides with a crowd capacity of 7 000 +Apart from the facilities of the complex it is the excellent transport access which is a key factor . This I think would influence discussions on relocation . Not having been there in the new era I hesitate to pass opinion but would have thought, that if there is going to be further surge in support , the smaller stands could be replaced with larger capacity versions !

 

[saulan]

Just an update for our brothers in the North, as your teams played out some games against the French and English, the Cheetahs played their last group match in the Currie Cup. They played pretty much their starting line up they have been starting in the Pro14, while they played the Lions who had 5 returning Springboks return to the squad. The Cheetahs side lost 44-17. Subsequently the Lions ended third on the log and the Cheetahs ended in 5th and will not be playing in the tournament's semi finals.

A positive for the Pro 14 I guess is that this shows that there is a lot of room for the Cheetahs still to grow, as they just got comprehensively beaten by another South African team, with another season or two and some player retention they could be potential ***le contenders. Although even at this stage, it is good to see that they have been playing competitively in the tournament so far.

 

[unrated]

Just an update for our brothers in the North, as your teams played out some games against the French and English, the Cheetahs played their last group match in the Currie Cup. They played pretty much their starting line up they have been starting in the Pro14, while they played the Lions who had 5 returning Springboks return to the squad. The Cheetahs side lost 44-17. Subsequently the Lions ended third on the log and the Cheetahs ended in 5th and will not be playing in the tournament's semi finals.

A positive for the Pro 14 I guess is that this shows that there is a lot of room for the Cheetahs still to grow, as they just got comprehensively beaten by another South African team, with another season or two and some player retention they could be potential ***le contenders. Although even at this stage, it is good to see that they have been playing competitively in the tournament so far.

I told a Cheetah friend its a mistake playing Rhule at fullback. He replied that we (the other sa team supporters) underestimate Rhules defensive capabilities. Judging by the scoreline not having watched individual performances. i would say it failed

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Is anyone hearing any negativity about the conference system?

It is different to the one in Super Rugby, so it is not comparing like with like. But you'd think to listen it the complaints about conferences in the SH that the mere notion made a good league impossible.

I said I thought the Pro14 Conference system was better than anything I could have thought of and I stand by that as the season draws to an end.

Only Munster, Glasgow, Dragons and Kings have nothing to play for. It is game on for the other 10 and if it was a straight round robin league I don't think that would be the case.