Heinekec Cup 2013/14 Pool 3, Round 5 (Toulouse v Saracens, Connacht v Zebre)

[munstermuffin]

Interesting that I not only one to have same views

http://www.debate.org/debates/The-french-are-cowards/1/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22k7ugmSucw
(This video reminds me of 2 guys)

 

[FrenchFan]

Facts put - Ulster make 10,12 changes in Rabo and do fine. Yes ye made great changes knowing ye are playing Treviso. Others don't as they aren't arrogant towards Treviso and put best team out as Europe means something. In 3 years Montpellier have 3 wins away from home in HEC against a poor Sale team a Cardiff team in dissaray and Treviso. Never beaten an Irish or Scottish team. For me they are a poor heartless team any their record of 8 wins out of 19 games says enough. As I said I will take them serious when they produce heart and results. Clermont Toulouse and Toulon do it

the rabo?? we are talking about the HCup here. Big big step up from the rabo.
yes Montpellier made changes, im not disputing it. Im the one filling you in on the nature of those changes because you can't get your facts right about it. It just happened that Montpellier's priority is not Europe but the Top14. They dont look down on Europe. You are the one saying that.They have to survive and perform in the Top 14 first. When they made those 14 changes before the Leicester game they did so because they had to prepare their game agst Toulon.
And the point i made, that you still can't refute, is that even as a tier 2 club with a 2nd string side they made a good account of themsleves agst the 2 pool leaders Leicester at home with the narrowest loss (1pt) and away to Ulster that struggled to put them away. You see that as a weakness, they are using it to build their experience as a squad.

I didnt know that making changes to a team now is a sign of arrogance? thats new. Must be straight from the Irish book on rugby psychology. You should get your views out there to the Irish team. They need all the help they can get.
I'd love to continue that thread. Its providing me with endless entertainment But if you can't take in a different view and can't back up your ill-informed appraisal of a team with facts, its getting pointless.
I just love that attitude about Irish fans that they think french teams lack bottle but irish teams have plenty of it in some sort of innate way. I've heard that one before. Its always hilarious coming from the underachievers and perpetual chokers in Int rugby.

 

[munstermuffin]

the rabo?? we are talking about the HCup here. Big big step up from the rabo.
yes Montpellier made changes, im not disputing it. Im the one filling you in on the nature of those changes because you can't get your facts right about it. It just happened that Montpellier's priority is not Europe but the Top14. They dont look down on Europe. You are the one saying that.They have to survive and perform in the Top 14 first. When they made those 14 changes before the Leicester game they did so because they had to prepare their game agst Toulon.
And the point i made, that you still can't refute, is that even as a tier 2 club with a 2nd string side they made a good account of themsleves agst the 2 pool leaders Leicester at home with the narrowest loss (1pt) and away to Ulster that struggled to put them away. You see that as a weakness, they are using it to build their experience as a squad.

I didnt know that making changes to a team now is a sign of arrogance? thats new. Must be straight from the Irish book on rugby psychology. You should get your views out there to the Irish team. They need all the help they can get.
I'd love to continue that thread. Its providing me with endless entertainment But if you can't take in a different view and can't back up your ill-informed appraisal of a team with facts, its getting pointless.
I just love that attitude about Irish fans that they think french teams lack bottle but irish teams have plenty of it in some sort of innate way. I've heard that one before. Its always hilarious coming from the underachievers and perpetual chokers in Int rugby.

Not a big step when it's Treviso. And my opinion is they didn't make good account of themselves but we will agree to disagree. And what have I to back up stats show their record is poor for French team in Europe. And for the resources Ireland have they've achieved a good amount but yes the national team lacked bottle as they don't come together well but in Heineken Cup they have proven themselves enough. French have achieved more internationally but also lacked bottle equally and well in club terms Toulouse, Clermont and now Toulon are 3 that I think earn respect the rest are clubs that just haven't heart or want. And you can bring international rugby in but there not much of that in Heineken and Ireland's problem there is interest is average in terms of we all want country to do well but a lot only support their province and 6nations isn't a priority

 

[Groundhog]

So the current Top 14 Champions are a tier 2 side? Figures. Mate your problem is that you state arguments people never made, and then attack them for it. You state that no one can take a different view when it's you insult the country and team of anyone who tries to counter your argument.
Also the underachievers comment is just priceless coming from a French fan.

 

[munstermuffin]

So the current Top 14 Champions are a tier 2 side? Figures. Mate your problem is that you state arguments people never made, and then attack them for it. You state that no one can take a different view when it's you insult the country and team of anyone who tries to counter your argument.
Also the underachievers comment is just priceless coming from a French fan.

He's right though, the Irish provinces have underachieved. Only 6 HEC ***les and well we rarely have a team in business end of season.

 

[Big Ewis]

So the current Top 14 Champions are a tier 2 side? Figures. Mate your problem is that you state arguments people never made, and then attack them for it. You state that no one can take a different view when it's you insult the country and team of anyone who tries to counter your argument.
Also the underachievers comment is just priceless coming from a French fan.

Dude, just no. Ireland really are badly underachievers, I think the biggest in the Rugby Union World. This won't win me any friends, but it's true. I understand Ireland are a small country and don't have a super huge pool of players to pick from, but Rugby is the major sport they're best at. And given the players they've had, how successful provinces have been, they are underachievers. Despite some excellent sides they've rocked, they've still never beaten the All-Blacks a single time, and have never got past the 1/4 F at the RWC in 7 attempts. 2007 is a classic example where they were really good in test matches and then failed to make it past the Pools. They've won a very small amount of 6N's, just one since 2000, and that GS was their first since 1948.

They've constantly, or almost, underachieved at int'l level while doing well domestically.
France aren't underachievers, they've ups and downs but they aren't underachievers. We have one or two Grand Slams in every decade since we became good (mid-50's) and plenty of tournament wins in every single decade since our first in 1954. We've always made it out of the Pools and have not made the 1/2F's only once at the RWC. Three times we made the final. Twice we've beaten the AB on our way there.
You can lean onto the "French inconsistency" crotch if you feel like it some time, but don't say it's priceless for a Frenchman to call Ireland underachievers. It's a fact.

P.S.: this is all considering we're talking national level which FrenchFan was I believe. Obviously the Irish provinces aren't underachievers.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

they didnt get the result but they didnt go into the HCup saying they were going to win it. Thats what you think. Your media love to talk up the opposition. Its typically Irish. You cant rise to the challenge of being favourite. Its the chokers mentality.
Montpellier performance in the pool contradicts your view. They didnt get the result but they got the performance. They were competitve in Ulster with a 2nd string squad. That speak volumes about their potential. Ulster are a one man team. Take out Pienarr and they will struggle.

Not true. Montpellier went into a difficult pool agst 2 former european champs with way more european experience. I didnt see their 1st game at home agst Ulster, so i wont comment. In their return game away to Ulster, they put on largely a 2nd string side that didnt roll over easily. Now thats not an excuse, lookijng at the team compo i can just tell it wasnt their first side. Ulster had to work hard to put them away and the scoreline 27-16 is nothing to be ashamed

In any case, there was nothing in their display that suggest they have 'no heart'. In their game away to Leicester, they lost but scored 32 points incl. 4 tries and remember French sides can't travel blabla...How many fairly inexperienced european sides like Montpellier travel to Leicester and rack up 4 tries against the Tigers. In the return game at home, they made 14 changes if i recall during the week and lost by the narrowest margin of 1 point. Im sure those 14 changes were motivated by their following game agst Toulon. They didnt get the result Montpellier in their pool but they're still quite new to Europe and their priority is the Top 14, but they got the performances.

Since you didn't watch the Montpellier - Ulster game, I'll tell you what happened. They got bullied right off the park. Our pack absolutely dominated every aspect of the game and Montpellier had simply no answer, as MM said the score could have been higher.
Sure, Pienaar plays a huge role in Ulster - as he would in any squad he's put in. One man team? You really don't know what you're talking about. Yeah we probably wouldn't do AS well without Pienaar but saying we're a one man team is one of the most idiotic comments I've ever heard.

Pienaar didn't march Montpellier off the park, the pack did. Struggle without Pienaar? Tell that to Best, Afoa, Muller, Trimble, Williams, Henry, Henderson, Payne, Bowe, Ferris, Tuohy. These are big game players who don't simply fall apart because one team member isn't there. Add to the fact that Ulster have probably the most exciting backline in the Rabo with Leinster shows it's not a one man game.

As for the second game there was a lot of pressure on Ulster and the complete expectation of 5 points (5 points meant Ulster only needed a losing bonus point for a home quarter). Just because the 2nd XV didn't just roll over and let Ulster embarrass them again at home doesn't mean they have heart. Just in case you didn't know, these are professional rugby players, they love this occasion and a physical challenge, they've no pressure or expectation so why not go for it?
I remember last year I think Ulster sent a 2nd and even some 3rd XV players down to Thomand Park. I think the score was 24-10 (I don't really remember the Munster team though..) but that's still a huge result in one of the hardest places in the Europe to go to.

So please, don't comment silly things like implying the top seed in the Heineken Cup in one of the hardest pools are a "one man team"

 

[big ginger 8]

I didnt know that making changes to a team now is a sign of arrogance? thats new. Must be straight from the Irish book on rugby psychology. You should get your views out there to the Irish team. They need all the help they can get.
I'd love to continue that thread. Its providing me with endless entertainment But if you can't take in a different view and can't back up your ill-informed appraisal of a team with facts, its getting pointless.
I just love that attitude about Irish fans that they think french teams lack bottle but irish teams have plenty of it in some sort of innate way. I've heard that one before. Its always hilarious coming from the underachievers and perpetual chokers in Int rugby.

So you get in an argument with one Irish fan and decide to insult all of Ireland? Cop on.

Also your comments about Irish opinions are horribly wrong. The average Irish rugby fan for ages held the French teams on a pedestal.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Dude, just no. Ireland really are badly underachievers, I think the biggest in the Rugby Union World. This won't win me any friends, but it's true. I understand Ireland are a small country and don't have a super huge pool of players to pick from, but Rugby is the major sport they're best at. And given the players they've had, how successful provinces have been, they are underachievers. Despite some excellent sides they've rocked, they've still never beaten the All-Blacks a single time, and have never got past the 1/4 F at the RWC in 7 attempts. 2007 is a classic example where they were really good in test matches and then failed to make it past the Pools. They've won a very small amount of 6N's, just one since 2000, and that GS was their first since 1948.

They've constantly, or almost, underachieved at int'l level while doing well domestically.
France aren't underachievers, they've ups and downs but they aren't underachievers. We have one or two Grand Slams in every decade since we became good (mid-50's) and plenty of tournament wins in every single decade since our first in 1954. We've always made it out of the Pools and have not made the 1/2F's only once at the RWC. Three times we made the final. Twice we've beaten the AB on our way there.
You can lean onto the "French inconsistency" crotch if you feel like it some time, but don't say it's priceless for a Frenchman to call Ireland underachievers. It's a fact.

P.S.: this is all considering we're talking national level which FrenchFan was I believe. Obviously the Irish provinces aren't underachievers.

It's 4th most popular team sport in the country, we've acheived bigger things in Soccer. (Round of 16 WC '94 and '02 and Quarter Finals '90) Ireland have underachieved in the last decade I'll give you that but as a whole we've generally been **** at rugby with an odd good team coming here and there. Considering rugby on a much smaller scale than soccer it may appear that we are better in rugby but Ireland have ranked in the top 10 and 20 in Soccer a few times since the rankings started which is as good in my opinion as our height of 2nd in rugby. I'm not saying France are underachievers but if they keep going like they are in this decade like they've done so far they'll have the label Ireland have now!

As for Montpellier's performances in this pool, they underachieved plain and simple. They shouldn't have lost four games and they did, I'd argue that they do in fact have heart or whatever you want to call it, they are one of the proper French clubs unlike Racing and Toulon, but Leicester and Ulster were just better and cuter in their matches. I can see how you could be happy with some of their performances. They had two cracking matches against Leicester and they played rugby and stopped Ulster getting the BP in Ravenhill, even if that was as much Ulster's doing as theirs, but on a whole they must be disappointed and if not they really need to look at their goals in the future.

 

[FrenchFan]

So the current Top 14 Champions are a tier 2 side? Figures. Mate your problem is that you state arguments people never made, and then attack them for it. You state that no one can take a different view when it's you insult the country and team of anyone who tries to counter your argument.
Also the underachievers comment is just priceless coming from a French fan.

hem...the Top14 ***le holder are Castres. And we have been talking about Montpellier all along. Can't get you facts right either. Must be an Irish thing

 

[FrenchFan]

He's right though, the Irish provinces have underachieved. Only 6 HEC ***les and well we rarely have a team in business end of season.

i was talking about the Irish team. They're the biggest underachievers in world rugby.

 

[FrenchFan]

Not a big step when it's Treviso. And my opinion is they didn't make good account of themselves but we will agree to disagree. And what have I to back up stats show their record is poor for French team in Europe. And for the resources Ireland have they've achieved a good amount but yes the national team lacked bottle as they don't come together well but in Heineken Cup they have proven themselves enough. French have achieved more internationally but also lacked bottle equally and well in club terms Toulouse, Clermont and now Toulon are 3 that I think earn respect the rest are clubs that just haven't heart or want. And you can bring international rugby in but there not much of that in Heineken and Ireland's problem there is interest is average in terms of we all want country to do well but a lot only support their province and 6nations isn't a priority

yeah lets agree to disagree about Montpellier. Your inital claim which spaked the thread was that they have no heart, based on their pool result. I have showed you that its not true but you can't back up your initial claim.

 

[FrenchFan]

It's 4th most popular team sport in the country, we've acheived bigger things in Soccer. (Round of 16 WC '94 and '02 and Quarter Finals '90) Ireland have underachieved in the last decade I'll give you that but as a whole we've generally been **** at rugby with an odd good team coming here and there. Considering rugby on a much smaller scale than soccer it may appear that we are better in rugby but Ireland have ranked in the top 10 and 20 in Soccer a few times since the rankings started which is as good in my opinion as our height of 2nd in rugby. I'm not saying France are underachievers but if they keep going like they are in this decade like they've done so far they'll have the label Ireland have now!

As for Montpellier's performances in this pool, they underachieved plain and simple. They shouldn't have lost four games and they did, I'd argue that they do in fact have heart or whatever you want to call it, they are one of the proper French clubs unlike Racing and Toulon, but Leicester and Ulster were just better and cuter in their matches. I can see how you could be happy with some of their performances. They had two cracking matches against Leicester and they played rugby and stopped Ulster getting the BP in Ravenhill, even if that was as much Ulster's doing as theirs, but on a whole they must be disappointed and if not they really need to look at their goals in the future.

well this is what i have been saying all along and you do acknowledge that they have heart balls attitude corojones whatever. So im not the only one to challenge munstermuffin on that point.They were beaten by 2 superior sides. I have no issue with that and never said I did. I don't begrudge Ulster and Leicester their qualification, they have earned it. All I said is that Montpellier based on their relative inexperience in Europe compared to 2 ex European champs performed reasonably well in a difficult pool. They put up a 2nd string sides agst these 2 sides due to the demands of the Top14 (and NOT out of arrogance and disrespect to the opposition) and put up a good fight in both games. A 1 point loss to a side like Leicester even at home does not make them underachievers.

 

[Big Ewis]

It's 4th most popular team sport in the country, we've acheived bigger things in Soccer. (Round of 16 WC '94 and '02 and Quarter Finals '90) Ireland have underachieved in the last decade I'll give you that but as a whole we've generally been **** at rugby with an odd good team coming here and there. Considering rugby on a much smaller scale than soccer it may appear that we are better in rugby but Ireland have ranked in the top 10 and 20 in Soccer a few times since the rankings started which is as good in my opinion as our height of 2nd in rugby. I'm not saying France are underachievers but if they keep going like they are in this decade like they've done so far they'll have the label Ireland have now!

well yeh but that's ultra-recent. Just in 2011 we may have lost to Tonga but that's its own story, we were in the RWC Final having our way against NZ in NZ. And 2010 was a Grand Slam ***le in the 6N, the year prior. Sure things haven't been peachy under PSA, but there are very good reasons for that too. 2013 was horrible, but that's one year. No one can start saying "France are underachievers" because of a couple of years in a century's existence.
And Ireland, I've quietly noticed but never wanted to bring it up, have consistently underachieved. You Irish fans know this better than me. At least 6N period, I honestly don't know before that.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

well this is what i have been saying all along and you do acknowledge that they have heart balls attitude corojones whatever. So im not the only one to challenge munstermuffin on that point.They were beaten by 2 superior sides. I have no issue with that and never said I did. I don't begrudge Ulster and Leicester their qualification, they have earned it. All I said is that Montpellier based on their relative inexperience in Europe compared to 2 ex European champs performed reasonably well in a difficult pool. They put up a 2nd string sides agst these 2 sides due to the demands of the Top14 (and NOT out of arrogance and disrespect to the opposition) and put up a good fight in both games. A 1 point loss to a side like Leicester even at home does not make them underachievers.

But a 2 point loss in the last minute against the ABs make Ireland underachievers..

 

[FrenchFan]

It's 4th most popular team sport in the country, we've acheived bigger things in Soccer. (Round of 16 WC '94 and '02 and Quarter Finals '90) Ireland have underachieved in the last decade I'll give you that but as a whole we've generally been **** at rugby with an odd good team coming here and there. Considering rugby on a much smaller scale than soccer it may appear that we are better in rugby but Ireland have ranked in the top 10 and 20 in Soccer a few times since the rankings started which is as good in my opinion as our height of 2nd in rugby. I'm not saying France are underachievers but if they keep going like they are in this decade like they've done so far they'll have the label Ireland have now!

As for Montpellier's performances in this pool, they underachieved plain and simple. They shouldn't have lost four games and they did, I'd argue that they do in fact have heart or whatever you want to call it, they are one of the proper French clubs unlike Racing and Toulon, but Leicester and Ulster were just better and cuter in their matches. I can see how you could be happy with some of their performances. They had two cracking matches against Leicester and they played rugby and stopped Ulster getting the BP in Ravenhill, even if that was as much Ulster's doing as theirs, but on a whole they must be disappointed and if not they really need to look at their goals in the future.

well this is what i have been saying all along and you do acknowledge that they have heart balls attitude corojones whatever. So im not the only one to challenge munstermuffin on that point.They were beaten by 2 superior sides. I have no issue with that and never said I did. I don't begrudge Ulster and Leicester their qualification, they have earned it. All I said is that Montpellier based on their relative inexperience in Europe compared to 2 ex European champs performed reasonably well in a difficult pool. They put up a 2nd string sides agst these 2 sides due to the demands of the Top14 (and NOT out of arrogance and disrespect to the opposition) and put up a good fight in both games. A 1 point loss to a side like Leicester even at home does not make them underachievers.

 

[munstermuffin]

We will just disagree but based on stats over last 3 years records in a results-driven business are my basis for my view they're lack of heart and interest . Also for same reason Montpellier aren't underachievers Ireland are is that correct Frenchie Frog

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

well yeh but that's ultra-recent. Just in 2011 we may have lost to Tonga but that's its own story, we were in the RWC Final having our way against NZ in NZ. And 2010 was a Grand Slam ***le in the 6N, the year prior. Sure things haven't been peachy under PSA, but there are very good reasons for that too. 2013 was horrible, but that's one year. No one can start saying "France are underachievers" because of a couple of years in a century's existence.
And Ireland, I've quietly noticed but never wanted to bring it up, have consistently underachieved. You Irish fans know this better than me. At least 6N period, I honestly don't know before that.

I agree with you in the fact that we have underachieved in the 6nations era and unfortunately that was down to having two coaches who, for the most part, were out of their depth. I think/hope that Joe Schmidt will achieve much more in the next few years with an inferior player group than O'Sullivan or Kidney ever did. As for before the 6nations period we were really **** with an awfully amateur infrastructure. Rugby has only really boomed in Ireland in the last few years, It had quite an exclusive player pool due to the GAA restricting any of their members, a substantial percentage of the population, playing foreign sports until 1971 and a (accurate) prejudice of it being a very middle class game that still lingers today. The first foreign sport that Ireland really got into was soccer, rugby really only got going in the early 00's and the IRFU took a while to catch up and employed two sub standard coaches.

 

[munstermuffin]

In fairness Kidney delivered a Grand Slam and Eddie a few Triple Crowns Cmac but can agree with that

 

[Big Ewis]

I agree with you in the fact that we have underachieved in the 6nations era and unfortunately that was down to having two coaches who, for the most part, were out of their depth. I think/hope that Joe Schmidt will achieve much more in the next few years with an inferior player group than O'Sullivan or Kidney ever did. As for before the 6nations period we were really **** with an awfully amateur infrastructure. Rugby has only really boomed in Ireland in the last few years, It had quite an exclusive player pool due to the GAA restricting any of their members, a substantial percentage of the population, playing foreign sports until 1971 and a (accurate) prejudice of it being a very middle class game that still lingers today. The first foreign sport that Ireland really got into was soccer, rugby really only got going in the early 00's and the IRFU took a while to catch up and employed two sub standard coaches.

yeah ?.......well whatever man, Leinster's goin' DOWN !!! :angry2: