Heineken Cup 1/4F - Toulon v Leinster

[big ginger 8]

agreed, forgot to post about that. Domingo didn't get the calls against the Tigers and ASM were on the bad end of the calls. Here, Chiocci vs Ross was refereed very dismissively. Like they didn't have time to lose and oh look Chiocci's up let's give Leinster a penalty. Mike Ross was making absolutely no effort to stay horizontal either and if anything was responsible for the scrum moving up at least once if not more. Chiocci was not moving up on his own momentum obviously, he wasn't trying that tactic.
I'm not sold on Mike Ross and his scrummaging quite yet, I know he's getting lots of praise as of 2014 and with the new rules (that really do seem to favor larger specimens that struggled previously) but Chiocci was not *obviously* popping up. It's hard to tell, but Ross is definitely making no effort to stay put himself.

While many looseheads will drive up to an extent, you are not allowed drive fully up like that Chiocci was just driving up he didn't particulary care about going forward. Ross is a smart scrummagger and knew he'd get the penalty every time. It's actually before this season he'd have got more praise. He took his time to adapt to the new rules. But as I said he's a smart scrummagger so he'll usually get a few penalties. When he retires any club wou;d be smart to pick him up as a scrum coach quick.

 

[Big Ewis]

Well, Toulon's "legion of mercenaries" easily put 15 points to oh-the-so-traditional-and respectable-irish-team-made-only-of-players-bred-in-less-than-a-mile-around-the-stadium.

Note, you deserved it.

oh Feic said that ? didn't catch it. Haha, bad faith there, nothing more...if there's in deed one team that can't complain about Toulon's ton of int'ls, it's Leinster. They're Ireland ffs, no other team in THE WORLD has that advantage of having shared a common culture for so long and with the very elite national side and under coaching God and kiwi Schmidt. No other team in the entire world can claim they have that enormous advantage.
And through another scope, they're all internationals themselves. Toulon has a bunch of has-beens that wouldn't make a national side atm, they just play really well together too. One must pay tribute to that and salute that feat objectively. Buying a bunch of top guys who don't even speak the same language and shoving em up against one another isn't gonna get you a Heineken Cup de facto...

 

[Groundhog]

I would love nothing more than to see Toulon fall flat on their faces, more than any other team, but I reckon they'll win the tournament.

 

[TheSaffycen]

if there's in deed one team that can't complain about Toulon's ton of int'ls, it's Leinster. They're Ireland ffs, no other team in THE WORLD has that advantage of having shared a common culture for so long and with the very elite national side and under coaching God and kiwi Schmidt

A big difference in making your own players and having home grown talent/ buying anyone you can from anywhere. Next year Wilkinson retires and O'Connor and Halfpenny are coming in, they don't look too French players or academy players

 

[Tony Manx]

Really hope that the mercenaries don't win the HEC - I'd even want sarries over this lot.

I would love nothing more than to see Toulon fall flat on their faces, more than any other team, but I reckon they'll win the tournament.

Please do us a favour and get over it!

Professional rugby is here...they are self financing and winning........it is no longer a game of nationalities it is a game of squads/teams and Toulon have put together a rather decent one with a more than decent manager.

Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Leicester, Saracens, and Saints all have foreign imports so what, apart from their numbers and class, is the difference?

Even dear old Sale are hardly immune as most of their talent is hardly local to the Manchester area!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How many homegrown/academy players in toulons side today? One? Two?

They're a joke of a club - it seems only French/France fans are the ones sticking up for them, everyone else just thinks they're ridiculous.

 

[Tony Manx]

How many homegrown/academy players in toulons side today?

They're a joke of a club - it seems only French/France fans are the ones sticking up for them, everyone else just thinks they're ridiculous.

Yawn...........I do not support Toulon but Biarritz who have suffered from a lack of the very financial intelligence of Boudjellal and allowed a huge brand (compared to where Toulon were) to sink into the second division and probably not re-appear.

However, I am pragmatic and understand that the game has moved on and will continue to move on but fear that you are being left behind.

Yet again, we do not agree but there we are.......

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Tony, there's a difference between a handful and a team of imports. They're winning, it's working and fair enough but it is ridiculously impersonal from a fans point of view having a team of players who don't speak the same language as you. Whereas with the Irish and English teams at minimum 50% of the players are local and the fans know the schools and clubs they played for, they knew of them before they made it big things like that I used to see Bernard Jackman everyday on my way to school when he played for Leinster. Money has taken over the French league and it's working as they're winning in Europe but its come at the cost of their national team and I can only imagine it's because of French rugby culture being different to the rest of the world it hasn't cost them fans.


I can only imagine most Leinster fans would agree with me when I say I'd be far less happy if a team of foreigners came to Leinster and won a HEC than if we get SOB back next year, Matt O'Connor ups his game and Ian Madigan leads the team to a European championship. Its all a bit romantic but it shows that France's new rugby model won't sit well with the rest of the world for a while when it does eventually happen, itll take a while to get used to and there will be tonnes of old farts saying how it was better the old way, I'll be one of them.

 

[Groundhog]

But the game has moved in this direction only in France and its a shame. I don't think I will get over it because its **** for the game, and **** for most clubs who don't have millions of quid. You ask what the difference is between us and Toulon? Well that's simple, we support home talent and build internally using one or two foreign imports to fill areas where there is no talent. True some guys need to travel abroad to clubs like Rotherham for a chance but that's due to the fact we have only four teams more than anything else. Toulon are the opposite. Importing is the first option with the odd academy player filling a spot where Toulon haven't yet bought someone. Hence why guys like Fickou move. Im not trying to be superior about this or anything but I worry we won't be able to compete for long if this continues. A clubs traditions of strong player development can be beaten by a string of purchases nowadays and I think it's sad and not a direction I like in this game.
I don't really need to 'get over' something that is a legitimate rugby debate.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Leicester, Saracens, and Saints all have foreign imports so what, apart from their numbers and class, is the difference?

I think though that is the point the amount of them. I personally don't care all that much if Toulon win the HCup(obviously would prefer Sarries) as long as they play good rugby, but the thing is it doesn't help the growth of young players from Toulon and by extension France by getting in imports. I'll use Sarries as an example just because I know them better than the other teams mentioned. 24/44 of our players are English, Toulon have 18/42 players from France. 6 more and Sarries are probably the worse for imported players. Out of the 18 French players at least 9 of them are brought in from other French clubs. Next year Toulon are getting in 8 new players 3 are French, they are getting rid of 5 players 4 of which are French. Out of the 24 English players sarries have Sarries have produced 12 of them (13 if you include Taylor but he plays for Scotland through his Grand parents) and net year we are losing 4 players (all English) and we are using our academy to fill up the gaps. And that's the difference Borthwick retires and we will give Itoje a go, Short leaves and we give Earls a go, Gunther leaves Toulon and Gorgodze and Vosloo are brought in.

 

[Aristodemus]

Each country has their own ideology and it isn't a case of right and wrong. French clubs are the moneybags right now and are buying success but if France and England subbed three or even two and a half clubs with the international side would they be less successful? I don't like Toulon but they are just operating (better than most) within the top14 philosophy. It should be a discussion about the game (which I found very entertaining myself). I do smile at the people claiming it a victory for France though

Edit: Oh and Yoe, indeed is one word^^

 

[Draggs]

Toulon are obviously a club lacking morals or standards, just look at them arrogantly refusing to play in a town that recently elected a far right mayor of a racist party.
How dare they try to ruin everything.

 

[barthelemy]

that is a legitimate rugby debate.

Yes this is about right. This is a legitimate rugby debate definitely. I'm a bit scared that it will go the way football has gone since long years already and I have very few hope that it will change. Meanwhile, I would say that all this money bring sponsors and bring media attention. So the debate is : do we want a game of rugby just being a fan games without opening to new fans or do we want to enlarge the rugby attention to other fans ?

It is in a way very paradoxal that the french clubs have chosen that way (I'm really wondering why..why the french rugby situation has encouraged the current way of investment in rugby more than in other countries ? In france, Clubs are really important and you would think that historically they are less inclined to go towards the money bags way..) but this is the way it is. Even club like Toulouse that are encouraging the homegrowth way are declining slightly compare to Clermont or Toulon...

In the meantime, if I can do a parrallel with footbal (there is a lot of british guys here and I'm sure they support to one point a club of football), British football has grown up has a bag of money these last years, it makes premier league a very known championship with a huge base fans and a lot of money around. IS it good, is it not good ? that is the question.

I do not think we can criticize Toulon that much (they are critized a lot in France for being such a bag of money), they are playing within the rules they are given and play well with them. they have quite an important fan based, Mourad boudjellal their president (who has put a lot of money in his club) is a very controversial person but, at then end, he loves rugby, he is not a quatari fund at all...therefore, in my point of view, the bag of mone critic about Toulon is a bit a lie. there is a passion there (ask Wilko or whatever other foreign player that plays for Toulon), there is something special. Money does not do it all.

 

[Groundhog]

Well that has tweedle **** all to do with this Draggs you slut but on that subject, I actually find myself supporting Boujedall's decision to cancel the game, and really liked what he said with regards to supporting the multicultural nature of his team. It would be naivety to suggest that rugby and politics don't mix because they have in the past, and although I don't like Boujedall's attitude toward rugby he's a savvy chap.

 

[goodNumber10]

How many homegrown/academy players in toulons side today? One? Two?

They're a joke of a club - it seems only French/France fans are the ones sticking up for them, everyone else just thinks they're ridiculous.

I've played for 6 different clubs in my life, one was a move locally because i wanted o play a better standard of rugby and felt i wasn't being givena fair chance in the club who's youth section i'd come through playing 4th team when my old team mates were all playing 1st team seniors one year out of colts... so i told them i was going to another local club that was three divisions above..... got called everything under the sun but went anyway and broke their 1st team in 3 months justifying my move somewhat.

I guess the point i'm making is, I don't see why it has to be about internal development. At no other level of the game do people care if the players are home grown or not, it's just because there is money involved that people feel it's wrong. People want to be part of a good club, and they want to win trophies they shouldn't feel obligated to stay somewhere and commit to a team out of a false loyalty, and as a coach i want the same so would have no qualms about assembling a team i wanted to coach.

If that makes sense.

 

[munstermuffin]

April 27th in Marseille. Toulon we coming and we still ****** over what happened in that pit 3 years ago so be ready only this time we've got a scrum and while we've no structure behind scrum we do have talent. And also we have a good pack. Yes Toulon have all that and extras but hell we are coming for a war so be prepared.

 

[Draggs]

Yes, I am a slut, but more on that later.

I thought it was worth mentioning, and also goes to show that Toulon aren't just some nasty side trying to ruin things. Boudjellal is a very bold person, and what he has done with Toulon is a testament to it, this only serves to back it. Yes, I know that its all the money, but it shows his commitment to his side. Also look at the stance, NF is firmly anti immigration and bigoted, Boudjellal brings in players of every nationality and ethnicity, he doesn't wear two different boots here.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes, I am a slut, but more on that later.

I thought it was worth mentioning, and also goes to show that Toulon aren't just some nasty side trying to ruin things. Boudjellal is a very bold person, and what he has done with Toulon is a testament to it, this only serves to back it. Yes, I know that its all the money, but it shows his commitment to his side. Also look at the stance, NF is firmly anti immigration and bigoted, Boudjellal brings in players of every nationality and ethnicity, he doesn't wear two different boots here.

Agreed it's 1 thing having all money but you have to buy right players and personalities. He has done this be it guys who'd done all they had to down under or guys rebuilding after injuries like Wilkinson or fellas who had chip on shoulders like S. Armitage. Racing Metro are an example that it's more than money that's needed

 

[Big Ewis]

wheewwwww, sour grapes on here ! Yikes ! You don't see it, because you are "it", but for a neutral it's quite a spectacle to read some of those posts.

barthelemy nice to see you here again, and yes I agree with your post entirely. I'm among the first to criticize Boudjelal and Toulon and the moneh moneh moneh moneh thing, but as a sports fan for a while now, I understand money doesn't buy everything. Players need to mesh, a coach needs to bring about good cohesiveness within the group, both rugby wise AND mentally and that last part can be the entire difference.
As an NBA fan, I've seen in the 90's Barkley+Drexler+Olajuwon and nothing came out of it at all, and more recently the Lakers with one of the best starting 5 of all-time, barely made the playoffs (yes I know, key injuries didn't help).

A winning team is necessarily a healthy organization, and I mean Toulon ARE playing the likes of Clermont, Leinster, Munster and co. who absolutely cannot start pointing fingers. Leinster have the biggest advantage of all as I stated earlier. Team sports are about cohesiveness and chemistry. You don't got that, you don't got nothin. Simple as that.

So I learn to cheer for Oyonnax or Grenoble when they beat the giant, a case of David and Goliath, who the hell wants to cheer for Goliath ?? Much more integrity supporting the little guys...but when it's time for the European Cup, and everybody else is getting their big guns out and it's Mastodon vs Mastodon, I look at the team that plays the best Rugby. And this afternoon, Toulon showed their dominance by getting home advantage from the pool stages and beat a European giant.

'vae victis'. Toulon were better, they go to the 1/2F, Leinster goes home. Reality moves on and the ones have only their eyes to cry, the others their destiny to subdue.
But I mean Leinster can't be all that sad. They just won the 6N ***le !..


P.S.:
my house in France is in the Var, and the RCT Toulon is a huge thing there. You see RCT stickers on a bunch of cars even in my little town. Fans know all about their players, the RCT will always be RCT to them. Guys like Wilkinson have put their hearts and souls on the line for this club, he's thinking of joining the staff there when he's retired, he loves it there. He's learned French very well, Delon Armitage is fluent. Andrew Sheridan picked up wine classes there and is blending into the southeastern decor. A guy like David Smith is probably just there for the money though and because he has a huge chance of winning there, but you find those guys on every team in the world, in all sports.

 

[munstermuffin]

At Big E. Just out of curiosity how do Leinster have biggest advantage of all?
Also not to go back to harping on about cash but 2 stats Len Dineen (well respected broadcaster here) had for me yesterday.
1. Toulouse playing budget was 4 times size of Musters
2. It was more than IRFUs for paying all players in 4 provinces (including Central Contracts) which equaled 88% of budget