Heineken Cup 1/4F - Toulon v Leinster

[Big Ewis]

At Big E. Just out of curiosity how do Leinster have biggest advantage of all?
Also not to go back to harping on about cash but 2 stats Len Dineen (well respected broadcaster here) had for me yesterday.
1. Toulouse playing budget was 4 times size of Musters
2. It was more than IRFUs for paying all players in 4 provinces (including Central Contracts) which equaled 88% of budget

I don't want to start a riot here. My whole point is cohesiveness in team sports. Had Toulon really just been a bunch of cash they wouldn't have beaten Leinster today, or too many Top 14 sides. There's more than that, as my whole post discusses.

Then about Leinster, the money isn't an issue here as they have just what Toulon have: a ton of test level internationals, doesn't matter how much they get paid, we're only looking at the class on the field here, nothing else.
The fact that they benefited from Joe Schmidt's knowledge and coaching for 4-5 years, have a fine heir now, are basically Ireland the national team that faces the likes of France, Wales and beats them or even the All-Blacks...there's a cohesiveness, togetherness, knowledge of each other and downright chemistry no other club side in the world has atm. They basically play all year long, club or int'l, together.

I'm not pointing fingers. I was just replying, rightfully so, to a Leinster fan who gets the old "Toulon and their legions of internationals" card out. Let's not blind ourselves from the facts here, let's play it fair.
Leinster and Ireland benefit from something no other side/nation gets.

 

[profitius]

To each their own I say. If Toulon want to play 0 French men then it doesn't bother me. It weakens the French national side.


Toulons owner is an egomanic. Cancelling the game last week confirms this. Disgraceful carry on that was. Keep politics out of sport ffs! He doesn't care about French rugby but his own club/ego.

 

[Big Ewis]

To each their own I say. If Toulon want to play 0 French men then it doesn't bother me. It weakens the French national side.


Toulons owner is an egomanic. Cancelling the game last week confirms this. Disgraceful carry on that was. Keep politics out of sport ffs! He doesn't care about French rugby but his own club/ego.

that much is absolutely true. Yes. It is perfectly irrelevant to the points at hand and the thread altogether, but it is true indeed.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't want to start a riot here. My whole point is cohesiveness in team sports. Had Toulon really just been a bunch of cash they wouldn't have beaten Leinster today, or too many Top 14 sides. There's more than that, as my whole post discusses.

Then about Leinster, the money isn't an issue here as they have just what Toulon have: a ton of test level internationals, doesn't matter how much they get paid, we're only looking at the class on the field here, nothing else.
The fact that they benefited from Joe Schmidt's knowledge and coaching for 4-5 years, have a fine heir now, are basically Ireland the national team that faces the likes of France, Wales and beats them or even the All-Blacks...there's a cohesiveness, togetherness, knowledge of each other and downright chemistry no other club side in the world has atm. They basically play all year long, club or int'l, together.

I'm not pointing fingers. I was just replying, rightfully so, to a Leinster fan who gets the old "Toulon and their legions of internationals" card out. Let's not blind ourselves from the facts here, let's play it fair.
Leinster and Ireland benefit from something no other side/nation gets.

At top I'll start.
I agree Toulon are a lot more than just money and seem to have built a great team with the right personalities.

Regards your 2nd point your not wrong either it was 15 vs 15 with benches both equally healthy on international experience. The only difference today was Leinsters tactics and execution were wrong
Next point is fair too but I'd say being all Leinster on Ireland has pros and cons. Yes there's more time together but them internationals take toll on bodies and when 6Nations was over Leinster got back too many shattered bodies.

But yes I agree Toulon aren't a team who won today because of money or whatever. They played better and Leinsters errors were just too much. But as I said Leinsters international issue can have pros and cons but also could be too much for guys down line causing injuries

 

[Tony Manx]

Healthy debate this one and good to see it has stayed at a level above slagging each other off!

I would comment that "the Toulon way is not good for the fans"......I do believe that the fans love it as they are going week in week out to watch some of the greatest players winning! Certainly, we at Biarritz would love it for a change!!

What is not fair on the fans is the desire of Sarries (and Wasps have done it too) to play league or cup games in South Africa, The Middle East or USA.....how does that assist the fans who have for years stumped up their money for season tickets who cannot afford the money or the time to travel to these proposed games?

In the end, to most club supporters, it is better for a club to be winning rather than losing, although I like most rugby supporters will continue to support a losing rugby team a lot longer than the average football fan, as these last and next few seasons have and will demonstrate, and it would be interesting to know if the majority of club supporters would rather their club or country were winning....... were that the choice?

It seems to me that, since the dawn of real professional rugby and in "World terms" of success, in Australia and NZ, the clubs are secondary in importance to the International team, in SA it would appear they have the balance about correct.

In "World terms" NH teams have been pretty unsuccessful really if measured by the RWC, apart from 2003, and in terms of "NH success" only, England seem to have always been a "nearly" team or one "in development" despite years when clubs have been successful, Ireland are virtually a team from two (maybe three) clubs' and Wales have been successful despite their clubs whilst Italy and Scotland have hardly been what one could vaguely call successful at club or international level!

I do believe that France, with a decent coach, will return to former greatness at some stage despite the way that money is allowed into the game there, and they did nearly win the last RWC!!

 

[gaston le gaff]

Here we go again the Irish has lost a game of rugby against a bunch of Space Cowboys, who are also an aging bunch of ex internationals, and you with a team jam packed full of home based, home grown Internationals, cannot beat the Space Cowboys. So what do we do we attack the President far too wealthy and induces far too much cash into his club,( few may know but Toulon actually bankrolls itself these days and makes a profit)
We then start on political issues all because of a friendly that was semi organised to play Beziers before next seasons TOP 14 starts. Then we attack the players, Space Cowboys old, very old for this sport!!!!!!!!!, do you guys go round mugging the oldies for kicks. leave the space cowboys alone they have done nothing wrong, just getting older and earning a couple of quid before retirement!!!!!!!
Toulon won yesterday because they played better rugby, were better prepared and showed it on all corners of the field, i take my hat off to Laporte it must be very difficult to train a bunch of aging Space Cowboys into an elite band of rugby players who are able to beat howngrown present Internationals so easily!!!!!!!!!!
All the **** that is thrown at the French rugby clubs is pure jealously after a defeat, someone mentioned Brian Jackman, where is he now Grenoble!!!!! nothing is eversaid about Sir Jonnie, Sexton,
O'Gara, Roberts,and many others, were they kidnapped i don't think so...........

GET YOUR OWN HOUSES IN ORDER BEFORE KNOCKING OURS!!!!!!!!!!!
and please get over it there is always next season, but then you may have to be just a little more competitive in your own Championships to qualify.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Feicarsinn]

Here we go again the Irish has lost a game of rugby against a bunch of Space Cowboys, who are also an aging bunch of ex internationals, and you with a team jam packed full of home based, home grown Internationals, cannot beat the Space Cowboys. So what do we do we attack the President far too wealthy and induces far too much cash into his club,( few may know but Toulon actually bankrolls itself these days and makes a profit)
We then start on political issues all because of a friendly that was semi organised to play Beziers before next seasons TOP 14 starts. Then we attack the players, Space Cowboys old, very old for this sport!!!!!!!!!, do you guys go round mugging the oldies for kicks. leave the space cowboys alone they have done nothing wrong, just getting older and earning a couple of quid before retirement!!!!!!!
Toulon won yesterday because they played better rugby, were better prepared and showed it on all corners of the field, i take my hat off to Laporte it must be very difficult to train a bunch of aging Space Cowboys into an elite band of rugby players who are able to beat howngrown present Internationals so easily!!!!!!!!!!
All the **** that is thrown at the French rugby clubs is pure jealously after a defeat, someone mentioned Brian Jackman, where is he now Grenoble!!!!! nothing is eversaid about Sir Jonnie, Sexton,
O'Gara, Roberts,and many others, were they kidnapped i don't think so...........

GET YOUR OWN HOUSES IN ORDER BEFORE KNOCKING OURS!!!!!!!!!!!
and please get over it there is always next season, but then you may have to be just a little more competitive in your own Championships to qualify.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your lot brought it up after the game...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Gaston, you clearly didn't read anything over the last two pages, nobody argued that Toulon only won because of all of their money,there's no point it's quite obvious that's the reason. Again nobody argued that Leinster lost for this reason because that's wrong. Leinster have beaten the best in France both home and away before, the difference between those teams and yesterdays team was that we have since lost the best outhalf in Europe in Johnny Sexton to a **** team in France, one of the best outside backs in world rugby Isa Nacewa to retirement and the best coach in the world Joe Schmidt to the national team. They're hard losses to take and yesterdays game still could have been won if the players showed a bit of pride and shown up to play.


The difference with Leinster being successful and Toulon being successful is that when Leinster win not only is it an achievement for the coach and players but an achievement for the schools and clubs that reared the players, schools and clubs that the fans go to and play for. Whereas when Toulon win it's just something a rich man does in his downtime. As I said before its all a bit romantic but there is a lot more substance to a primarily homegrown team winning in Europe than a team that has been bought. I don't care, my team lost and would have to6 of the other 7 quarter finalists but I'd rather see Munster, Sarries or Clermont win the HEC rather than see Mourad win it again.

 

[Tony Manx]

As I said before its all a bit romantic ...............

I can understand all that and agree that that was what rugby was about. However, with owners in Europe, not just France, wanting to see their clubs making money, if only to survive rather than being a bottomless pit for their money, the inevitable change is to the Toulon model.

Biarritz is the first major casualty, and there will be more, where the romantics have remained in charge for just too long in the new professional era....and the romantics have just reappointed Blanco for a further SIX years to ensure that it will never reappear in the Top 14 in its present state!!

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can understand all that and agree that that was what rugby was about. However, with owners in Europe, not just France, wanting to see their clubs making money, if only to survive rather than being a bottomless pit for their money, the inevitable change is to the Toulon model.

Then where will the players come from?

That's the primary problem with their "model" - it skims the cream of the players but doesn't put anywhere near as many back - it leaves the global bank of players in recession.
You end up with clubs developing their own players and rich clubs buying them when they get good enough because they haven't developed any of their own - you only need to look at a club like Worcester or London Irish to see that.
It bites the hand that feeds - knowing that another hand will grow in it's place.

Toulon's model relies on them being the wealthiest club in the world - if English, Celtic and Antipodean clubs all had the same spending power then they would not exist.
What happens to when everyone else catches up? They will need to develop their own players or they will perish.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Gaston, you clearly didn't read anything over the last two pages, nobody argued that Toulon only won because of all of their money,there's no point it's quite obvious that's the reason. Again nobody argued that Leinster lost for this reason because that's wrong. Leinster have beaten the best in France both home and away before, the difference between those teams and yesterdays team was that we have since lost the best outhalf in Europe in Johnny Sexton to a **** team in France, one of the best outside backs in world rugby Isa Nacewa to retirement and the best coach in the world Joe Schmidt to the national team. They're hard losses to take and yesterdays game still could have been won if the players showed a bit of pride and shown up to play.


The difference with Leinster being successful and Toulon being successful is that when Leinster win not only is it an achievement for the coach and players but an achievement for the schools and clubs that reared the players, schools and clubs that the fans go to and play for. Whereas when Toulon win it's just something a rich man does in his downtime. As I said before its all a bit romantic but there is a lot more substance to a primarily homegrown team winning in Europe than a team that has been bought. I don't care, my team lost and would have to6 of the other 7 quarter finalists but I'd rather see Munster, Sarries or Clermont win the HEC rather than see Mourad win it again.

Yes i did read the previos pages and money did not win this match a well drilled team won against a team that did not play well and lost.!!!!! If it takes only money then why are Racing Metro Champions as they spend much more than Toulon, whether you like it or not, the way rugby pro is going is based on teams like Toulon or other French clubs who have invested to win, if you buy a company then you want it to be profitable this is what Toulon have done it is now a sporting company showing a profit and have started winning trophies, things change and the good old days which i also loved probably more than todays game, is no longer, so we have to go with the flow, if Fench clubs start winning everything in Europe things will change in GB and Ireland they have too.
What i would like to ask is if a company in Munster offers a Dubliner a job and doubles or triples his wages he will not go as it is not in his ethics. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yes i did read the previos pages and money did not win this match a well drilled team won against a team that did not play well and lost.!!!!!

It's rare that you see someone so completely contradict themselves in a single sentence.

 

[Tony Manx]

Then where will the players come from?

That's the primary problem with their "model" - it skims the cream of the players but doesn't put anywhere near as many back - it leaves the global bank of players in recession.
You end up with clubs developing their own players and rich clubs buying them when they get good enough because they haven't developed any of their own - you only need to look at a club like Worcester or London Irish to see that.
It bites the hand that feeds - knowing that another hand will grow in it's place.

Toulon's model relies on them being the wealthiest club in the world - if English, Celtic and Antipodean clubs all had the same spending power then they would not exist.
What happens to when everyone else catches up? They will need to develop their own players or they will perish.

Toulon like all French clubs have academies and indeed, there is a cap on the number of foreign players (ie not trained in or born in France) allowed in the squads and, I repeat again, Toulon last season had the highest average qualifying squad over the whole season.

I am afraid that argument does not stack up and the French clubs have actually thought about it in conjunction with their governing body......

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How many academy products were in their 23 yesterday?
Genuine question.

 

[Holiver]

The lads did good yesterday, but "the Munster men" are another kettle of fish. We'll have to be on our guard and practice our best rugby if we want to make it to the HCup final.

 

[gaston le gaff]

How many academy products were in their 23 yesterday?
Genuine question.

Also a genuine question who says that after player formation in the academies the players have to stay with their formater clubs, as they are young and inexperienced they are often loaned to other clubs to gain that experience, before returning or going elsewhere.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was jhsg genuinely wondering how many of their academy products make it. At any club, for that matter - as you say they don't have to stay at toulon.
I can think of like 3 players that they've produced.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I was jhsg genuinely wondering how many of their academy products make it. At any club, for that matter - as you say they don't have to stay at toulon.
I can think of like 3 players that they've produced.

At a rough guess i think 9/10 out of the 23 came from Toulon or different academies, without doing research there are quite a few but will have to do a bit of research for that, the Armitage brothers were at Nice at a very youing age why their French is so good.
At Montpellier we have 12/14 who have played TOP 14 this season who have come out of our Academy.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Weird about the Armitages: I know they were in an academy in France, but they were in the London Irish academy when they came to England and then 'graduated' to the senior side from there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I am afraid that argument does not stack up and the French clubs have actually thought about it in conjunction with their governing body......

Is that reffering to...

Toulon's model relies on them being the wealthiest club in the world - if English, Celtic and Antipodean clubs all had the same spending power then they would not exist.
What happens to when everyone else catches up? They will need to develop their own players or they will perish.

??

If it does then I will ask: how?