Heineken Cup Semi Final- Toulon v Munster

[Holiver]

all of France wants Toulon to win, obviously. Money buys fine internationals, that's how it is. But the coaches are all French, the owner who made this all possible is French, and Toulon have actually produced some fine players despite the oceans of foreigners and int'ls.
4 Frenchmen in the starting XV and 4 more off the bench, with 3 home-grown.

I totally understand ppl would hate Toulon, because they're excellent and because they've so many nationalities, but interestingly I was just watching an NBA game earlier, the San Antonio Spurs: they have two Frenchmen, an Italian, a Brazilian, an Aussie, an Argentinian, and even Tim Duncan is from the Virgin Islands (technically US, but...). The Spurs still are an NBA team, and an American team. They play an American style, are coached by an American, etc...
So because the Top 14 has evolved into such a juggernaut and industry, the number of French players doesn't matter anymore. They could've been less even, they're still a Top 14 side.
The criticism that goes along the lines that France are sinking because there are too many foreigners in the T14 and not enough home-grown players or French players per team, all that. Well it's true in part, but that's a French issue. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, we'll take care of our problems ourselves, thank you very much for your time and concern. When the xv de France lacks the enormous depth it currently posses, we'll really start talking about that.
And the other side of the criticism: that Toulon are an army of mercenaries. Well they obviously aren't. An army of mercenaries doesn't win the Heineken Cup twice in a row (sorry Sarries ), and they have some particularly good players like Lobbe or Habana (who's barely played at all this season) but guys like Wilko or the Armitages, Giteau, Hayman, Rossouw, David Smith, D.Mitchell or Juan Smith are guys who didn't necessarily have their place at test level for their respective nations that were well picked and brought to share a common goal, and well coached enough to produce the fine, fine blend of Rugby we've seen the past couple of years. Great chemistry, and huge dedication. Some beautiful tries too if you've watched some T14.

Toulon did start the likes of Tillous-Bordes, Chiocci, Suta and Burden, who are relative nobodies. And the bench had only one "star", Castrogiovanni, way past his prime himself.
There are lots of "soft spots" on that 23.

And they did beat the crap out of Leinster some time ago, and Leinster as I said then, will repeat it now, benefit from a huge advantage no other side in the world does and aren't exactly lacking stars/current international world class players.

Big win. Period. Munster came, had us all doubting for a while there, good game. Now they go back home.
I don't think anybody will get this here, but here goes:
"parce que Toulon"

As a supporter of Toulon, I approve this message! and so do the "mercenaries" haha

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The reason I dislike Toulon is mainly because Boulyboulyjal is an absolute **** and their style of rugby is uninspired muck. Their players are likeable apart from obvious exceptions and their fans are pretty great apart from booing the ref after he makes any call, correct or otherwise. Pilou pilou guy deserves a special place in hell as well actually...

 

[gaston le gaff]

So, let me ask you. If Clermont had won the other semi-final, giving us an all-French final, who would the neutral French fans support?

its fairly obvious the answer to that..... THE FRENCH ONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gaston le gaff]

"parce que Toulon"

VERY SUTLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I would consider myself a neutral and I was backing RCT.

I do think they have done enough to not get stuck with the label of an outright mercenary team. They play as a team (and if its not evident on the field then look at their successes over the last while) rather than one-off star players which is something my local WP team packed with local players is not doing ATM. Then there are some players who I don't consider to warrant selection for my team WP- who are currently bottom of the Superrugby log- so no, I wouldn't consider them close to world XV selection. They may not be French but that does not indicate that they would be better than any French player. The top 14 just has so much teams and is so competitive and then the club game in France is so far removed from test rugby that you can't really compare Top 14 teams with other club teams. I don't personally like the situation because I want our SA club level teams stronger (jsut look at the amount of players playing in these HEC SFs that could've run out for SA; 15!!) but that is not relavant here. Things are as they are.

EDIT, just to clarify that 15, I did choose players that might've jogged out for a SA team and don't want to put those players' decisions into question; it's a free world (for the most part, kinda) after all;

Schalk Brits
Craig Burden
BJ Botha
Bakkies Botha
Mouritz Botha
Allistair Hargreaves
Danie Rossouw
Juan Smith
Gerhard Vosloo
CJ Stander
Jacques Burger
Niel de Kock
Michael Claassens
Brian Habana
Bradley Barrit

 

[smartcooky]

its fairly obvious the answer to that..... THE FRENCH ONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right. Clermont. Thought so!

 

[gaston le gaff]

Right. Clermont. Thought so!

you just can't help yourself wrong again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[smartcooky]

you just can't help yourself wrong again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is Clermont-Auvergne not French then?

 

[TheSaffycen]

If anyone wants too see a team of mercenaries than look no further than Racing Metro
Toulon have managed to create something and you do see them trying for each other.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Is Clermont-Auvergne not French then?

Last time i looked yes but so are Toulon with a massive history of French rugby behind them, waiting for the next comments money merceneries etc, just to remind you last season Toulon were No1 in the Jiff representation, but that you would never consider of course. Racing have as many, but they have not won anything so no jibes at them for the moment, you need to change the record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Racing have as many, but they have not won anything so no jibes at them for the moment, you need to change the record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Look at the comment above yours

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Last time i looked yes but so are Toulon with a massive history of French rugby behind them, waiting for the next comments money merceneries etc, just to remind you last season Toulon were No1 in the Jiff representation, but that you would never consider of course. Racing have as many, but they have not won anything so no jibes at them for the moment, you need to change the record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is this possible? Looking at their current team they have 23 foreign players, compared with 14 for RM92. Clermont have 15 and Toulouse have 16.

 

[gaston le gaff]

The Jiff is the squad and not the team, at the moment it stands i think at 50% so if they have 23 as you say, there will be 23 or+ French players in the squad, eg the Armitages qualify as Jiff, also i think from when they were in the "Ecole de Rugby" in Nice.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Look at the comment above yours

Good to see we agree!!!!!!!!!! even if it's repeated, some guys need to hear it several times or the record stays broken or boring

 

[smartcooky]

Last time i looked yes but so are Toulon with a massive history of French rugby behind them, waiting for the next comments money merceneries etc, just to remind you last season Toulon were No1 in the Jiff representation, but that you would never consider of course. Racing have as many, but they have not won anything so no jibes at them for the moment, you need to change the record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are missing the point gaston. The impression I get from reading posts on this and other rugby forums is that Toulon are somewhat despised by a wide section of general French rugby fans. They are a bit like the Auckland NPC team used to be back in the 1990s, nationally disliked. There even used to be widely distributed T-Shirt in Christchurch back then that said;

I SUPPORT TWO TEAMS,
CANTERBURY AND ANY TEAM
PLAYING AUCKLAND
​

I've seen similar ones for Scotland/England, Wales/England and even Red Sox/Yankees

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

The Jiff is the squad and not the team, at the moment it stands i think at 50% so if they have 23 as you say, there will be 23 or+ French players in the squad, eg the Armitages qualify as Jiff, also i think from when they were in the "Ecole de Rugby" in Nice.

If the Armitage brothers count as JIFF players then the system is obviously flawed and should never be used as a measurement of foreign representation in a squad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, that jiff thing is useless if it counts foreign capped players, but also counting entire squad rather than averaging the match day over the season (as they do in the aviva) is wide open for exploitation as you could buy in 23 all blacks for your playing squad, then have 100 terribly french qualified players who will never see game time to get your numbers up.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Those are the rules whether you like them or not, it is not useless, it does not count foreign capped players!!!! it counts players who were in rugby school develoment schemes for 3 or more seasons which is a long time before the Armitages were capped and therefore has absolutely nothing to do with capped foreign players (there are other rules that apply for Jiff qualification but it is pointless as you just dont like the French sticking it up you)

 

[gaston le gaff]

I think you are missing the point gaston. The impression I get from reading posts on this and other rugby forums is that Toulon are somewhat despised by a wide section of general French rugby fans. They are a bit like the Auckland NPC team used to be back in the 1990s, nationally disliked. There even used to be widely distributed T-Shirt in Christchurch back then that said;

I SUPPORT TWO TEAMS,
CANTERBURY AND ANY TEAM
PLAYING AUCKLAND
​

I've seen similar ones for Scotland/England, Wales/England and even Red Sox/Yankees

Sorry i'm not missing the point i am the absolute lover of everything French, French wife, 2 French daughters, Official for a French Rugby Club, French wine, French cheese, French food, French Rugby, French people bar Parisiens, French Cognac as it can only be French, etc etc, so some dislike Toulon but if Toulon is the only French side in the final then the French will support Toulon whether they like them or not, makes sense to me and of course because rugby is a profitable business in France there is money so Clubs buy excellent players, which ****** everyone off, if French clubs did not win anything no one but give 2 shi** about teams like Toulon, but there it is jealous will get you everywhere bar where you want to go. God behold if Toulon win the H Cup Final we will never here the end of it and a French Club will more than likely win the TOP 14 AGAIN this year, oh i do love France!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

So, let me ask you. If Clermont had won the other semi-final, giving us an all-French final, who would the neutral French fans support?

well, which ever man. Not everything is about ideological alignment. Personally, I'd have liked Clermont although I do want Jonny to go down as even greater so another H Cup would allow him to be more considered in the all-time greats discussions. I love this man. Yes, pure homo. Some might prefer the shiny yellow Clermont style with their gorgeous skills and passing and running and all, others the more gritty muddy but still at times awesome on attack style of Toulon.
There isn't "the neutral French fan", that's just a strange notion that never existed.

This isn't accurate, Toulon played the ball a lot even getting in trouble in their 22 for overplaying it, good offloading and passing from them in attack. Both defences were very good, as you'd expect in finals rugby. It's not really the place for open running rugby, ask the All Blacks and Clermont Auvergne.



The Armitage brothers can't play for France, but they are actually part French too having grown up and learned their rugby there.

Agreed. munstermuffin is working off fabricated stereotype and not facts. Toulon have put together some of the most gorgeous pieces of play and tries of the season, and this in the Top 14 with teams like on-form Toulouse, Clermont, Paris, Montypellier or Bordeaux. Mermoz has won his form back this year and has finished off some beautiful scores, been a willing and efficient passer, Basta's on form, Giteau's a fkn genius at midfield, Wilko with T-Bordes/Claassens/Michalak at HB, D.Armitage can beat some guys...and they're well coached enough to make those plays happen. Very good chemistry.

If anyone wants too see a team of mercenaries than look no further than Racing Metro
Toulon have managed to create something and you do see them trying for each other.

Agreed. Racing (early season) is what I'd call a team of mercenaries. Not anymore though, the guys have been playing some SERIOUS Rugby since about the last third of the season.

stormer: I'd like to second that out-of-SA-Saffa XV. South Africa has really produced a ton of great players and there are so many in the Top 14 alone that basically have test Rugby level, it deserves recognition. I mean I'd legitimately pick Gerhard Vosloo in the French national team, even at his age. And we actually ARE stealing Rory Kockott from you ungrateful spoiled people. Thanks again !

And gaston. How in the world have you become so francophile ? Have you lost a really bad bet some years ago or ??