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Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

Tallshort said:
Sorry as much as I understand the regions anger towards the WFU I really really dont think this is a good Idea. What about relegation? What about European rugby? What about the Championship clubs? What does this add to the English club game?

crazy
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Despite the attractiveness of the idea (apparently!) English clubs need to stay the hell out of this Welsh spat, if only because it could create more problems than it solves. The nitty gritty of the BT deal is a mystery to me, so I`m not sure how much of that is a driver for this potential Anglo/Welsh plan. The bottom line for me is that English rugby is broadly speaking sorted (and getting more sorted with each season) and to enter into the Celtic rugby omni-shambles willingly would be incredibly stupid. It`s harsh but the Celts in order to attain quality international teams opted for the regional model, its not England`s problem that its not working at 'club' level for them.
 
Largejanner said:
Despite the attractiveness of the idea (apparently!) English clubs need to stay the hell out of this Welsh spat, if only because it could create more problems than it solves. The nitty gritty of the BT deal is a mystery to me, so I`m not sure how much of that is a driver for this potential Anglo/Welsh plan. The bottom line for me is that English rugby is broadly speaking sorted (and getting more sorted with each season) and to enter into the Celtic rugby omni-shambles willingly would be incredibly stupid. It`s harsh but the Celts in order to attain quality international teams opted for the regional model, its not England`s problem that its not working at 'club' level for them.
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still just lumping all celts together and all regions together

the irish regions are not the same as the welsh or scots.

english rugby broadly sorted? bull puckey

the prl and the rfu have many a big argument left. how long before players arnt released for summer tours then autumn internationals?

just because scots rugby faltered ( which cannot be solely blamed on regions)

and that the welsh are struggling with their chosen format does not allow the english to clamber on the moderately high pony and slag off all the celtic nations without context




god i lovebeer
 
j_remos said:
Financially we do better from League games than European ones (less travel costs, less free tickets to ERC, more TV money). That said i think everyone wants some kind of European competition as long as its on terms we agree with. Thats the big issue with expanding the Prem to have the Welsh. It cant be undone fast enough to respond to a new Cup when it comes.

If the proposal was for 2 14 team Leagues (prem/Championship) with 2 Welsh clubs from each to replace the LV= i could get behind that as i would love to have more Quality games Vs the welsh and more Quality teams in the Prem. I would only consider it a good move though if we brought the Championship under the PRL banner and game them more rights and support. That would have to include a better TV deal so they could increase exposure and as such Advertising revenue (perhaps 1 game a week minimum).

Still, the best solution for all would be what most people, clubs, owners, fans and Unions agree at this point. But how we get past the TV deals without either side feeling like they have lost i don't know. Perhaps Sky wand BT will talk but i doubt it. Its in BTs interest to make Sky suffer as much as they can.
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This I'd understand but in Aviva the majority of clubs are in between midlands and London. But will they all travel to Wales and vice versa. Like apart from the few like Bath and Glaws etc will rest travel. I presume Tv money will drop slightly as more teams.
But few queries:

If Wales have case (like North and Saints) in AIs.
Will RRW get representatives put on PRL boards.
Will the RFU try recruit Welsh refs.
Just regards Internationals will a system similar to EPS have to be set up by WRU.
 
ratsapprentice said:
http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/213121.html

Bear in mind that ESPN (UK) is owned by BT...
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And they think they'll get a penny if they announce they're withdrawing from HEC. Brave call.
And I know BT have a lot of money but hope this all goes well because from what I see as neutral is:
Regions starting with £800k debt
Going to have a large legal bill as there will be counter action from WRU
Questions over will PRL be prepared to pay for court dates and possibly delay domestic season.

Also Welsh regions aren't profit making or strong enough for Aviva Prem. So how will they fair when starting out with huge debts and poor squads. I know there limits on relegation etc but I'd expect this will be challenged legally too.
I think this has potential to destroy regions in next 5-10 years and also really hurt Wales in RWC.
And dare I say England as host nation are getting in to this mess and will be badly disrupted
 
As we all know: anything written by Roger Lewis is well ​worth the paper it's printed on.
 
A crazy thought but do English clubs even want the Regions?
Like do they benefit financially much or what?
 
munstermuffin said:
A crazy thought but do English clubs even want the Regions?
Like do they benefit financially much or what?
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From a monetary point of view I'd imagine so:
More money from TV deals,
More games in the season = more ticket sales,
Potentially increasing sponsor revenue due to a larger audience,

Depends how close they feel to championship sides/how much they empathise with them.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
From a monetary point of view I'd imagine so:
More money from TV deals,
More games in the season = more ticket sales,
Potentially increasing sponsor revenue due to a larger audience,

Depends how close they feel to championship sides/how much they empathise with them.
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But will TV money be so much more like will them extra few games be better than Heineken Cup money? And ok extra season ticket revenue but will that not again be offset by loss of LVIV Cup and European rugby?
Will there be larger audience like what do Welsh regions bring in sponsorship to Pro12? Not a whole lot and will audience be bigger? BT already broadcast in Wales and I sure most there watch Premiership already.

And Duck is offer more to destroy ERC though? Let's remember Regions wasn't first choice but a revamped European competition. And then when they were out on there own did they target most vulnerable area (Regions vs WRU)
 
Last edited:
That's a good point re. HEC money.
The way I'm looking at it is: English clubs won't be in the HEC next season, so anything extra, money wise, is a bonus. I think the extra league games will offset the LV= games, as LV= games tend to have considerably lower attendances than Prem ones.
Sponsorship wise, I meant on a club to club basis, rather than as a TV deal. e.g. Would MBNA put up more money to be main sponsors of Sale Sharks, knowing that their logo is going to be paraded around an extra four venues (though, thinking about it, this may be a damage limitation thing rather than extra money, as their sponsor deals will likely drop with advent of HEC/Amlin games).
 
TRF_Olyy said:
That's a good point re. HEC money.
The way I'm looking at it is: English clubs won't be in the HEC next season, so anything extra, money wise, is a bonus. I think the extra league games will offset the LV= games, as LV= games tend to have considerably lower attendances than Prem ones.
Sponsorship wise, I meant on a club to club basis, rather than as a TV deal. e.g. Would MBNA put up more money to be main sponsors of Sale Sharks, knowing that their logo is going to be paraded around an extra four venues (though, thinking about it, this may be a damage limitation thing rather than extra money, as their sponsor deals will likely drop with advent of HEC/Amlin games).
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Like I understand that and my point is as you say - What exactly will English teams get?
It's all fine for Regions as they I admit are going to a better league marginally and are protected slightly from relegation and get larger amounts of cash but from a Sale Sharks view Olyy look at it from my view:
Possibly lesser money as you loose out on 2 competition (Europe & LV) for 4 more home games that probably won't bring much support.
Possibly a lower tv revenue as there's more teams so pie slice reduces slightly.
Extra travel costs going to 4 more away games ( although this is offset by Euro games gone)
But interestingly enough no relegation safety net so here'd be an unlikely scenario BUT
16 teams in a league for example say it ended
13- Sale
14- Scarlets
15- Cardiff
16- Dragons

Does that mean Dragons and Sale go down? How'd an English club feel if a scenario like that possibly happened. It has court action written all over it
 
I've said elsewhere/earlier in here that the only way I'd want the regions in the premiership is if there's no euro cup happening, and they're subject to the same relegation rules as everyone else.

Doesn't look like this will happen, though. I'd hope that the clubs (especially the lower table clubs/Bristol) would really push for this if/when they start seriously planning it all out.
 

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