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How to determine the infringing side in a scrum?

SixteenSixtySix

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I find it difficult to figure out which side is making the infringement especially the 'front row collapsing' infringement but have no idea how the referee pick it out.

Would someone explain to me what to look at when the infringement is happening? I'm just trying to know as much as possible on the scrum because it's just fascinating to me.
 

kusta

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I find it difficult to figure out which side is making the infringement especially the 'front row collapsing' infringement but have no idea how the referee pick it out.

Would someone explain to me what to look at when the infringement is happening? I'm just trying to know as much as possible on the scrum because it's just fascinating to me.

Think everyone will know that there's no perfect way to judging a scrum and even the referees dont get it right most of the time, only those front row players really know. I used to play prop and i think i know most of the tricks in scrumming albeit Club rugby and not professional but same thing really.

1) First and foremost what normally collapses a scrum is the prop not getting a full on bind (binding on the arm is not good enough and might collapse a scrum as well), once you lose that bind the scrum will collapse. So referees try find the culprit and is usually the one penalised, another thing which was argued quite a lot was that Props couldnt even put their hands on the floor to support the scrum from collapsing which is kind of a Catch 22 situation in which you couldnt get the bind yet when you try fix it by putting your hands on the floor you still get penalised.

2) Another one is on the engage when the momentum of two packs would be too great and frankly the one who cant take the heat usually is the culprit in collapsing and would be penalised but we dont see this happen much anymore with the new laws of "set" instead of "engage."

3) This last point is probably the most hard to judge and is really unfair to be honest, its that the first prop to go down is usually the culprit and he is doing it on purpose, but he's not. There are techniques to make the guy go down regardless how big he is. So with this point the first guy that goes down and looking at his body position when he is down(if he's flat down on his stomach) likely to get penalised. And head in the dirt bending over type of position is least to get penalised.

Thats it, hope that helps. Scrums are really not rocket science as people make them out to be.
 

InsaneAsylum

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pretty good Kusta, what about boring in/driving in on an angle? I have no idea what props do but I'm told them must drive straight
 

gaston le gaff

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biggest bunch of cheating Bar Stewards that ever lived "The Front Row" Refs have been trying for years and failed we have no chance!!!!!!!!!!
 

nzlizard

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pretty good Kusta, what about boring in/driving in on an angle? I have no idea what props do but I'm told them must drive straight

All I know is it is really hard to see on tv when this happens and normally requires me to see an up close reply to have any idea.

Biggest thing I find watching the scrums on tv is not being close enough with the camera most of the time to see the detail, or being too close and only getting part of the picture, on the whole the ref has the best view for scrums.

Good luck trying to interpret most of the time from in front of the tv.
 

kusta

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pretty good Kusta, what about boring in/driving in on an angle? I have no idea what props do but I'm told them must drive straight

Driving on an angle is really a technique and frankly the locks play the biggest part on that, its used by the team to lets say swing the scrum so to twist the number 8 to the open-side/free side and frankly eliminates the defensive loose forwards from getting to the ball. Its not easy to do it right though unless your scrum is going forward, then its somewhat acceptable.

The only time you get the prop scrumming at an angle is when he is trying to twist the scrum by himeslf(worst idea) cause he wont be driving forward and frankly will be penalised for "scrumming in". Sometimes it works as an advantage of getting underneath the shoulders of your opposing prop and then being able to drive him up and backwards cause you'll be using the power from your thighs and hamstring and will make you get that advantage over him.
 
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Ragey Erasmus

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I think that having 2 officials, 1 either side of the scrum, could help make the correct calls and hopefully prevent so many resets. I know i'm in the minority though. The assistant refs currently don't get involved in scrum decisions that much at all.
 

ratsapprentice

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I don't think it would help much TBH.

The issue is that the refs have some sort of mental block when it comes to scrummaging - they just don't seem to "get" it.
 

goodNumber10

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I don't think it would help much TBH.

The issue is that the refs have some sort of mental block when it comes to scrummaging - they just don't seem to "get" it.

It's quite difficult to understand the physics/dynamics of you've never been a scrummager.
 

ORothlain

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biggest bunch of cheating Bar Stewards that ever lived "The Front Row"
I would wear that quote on a t-shirt with pride. Ha Ha Ha!
Yes, the scrum is a massive competition. We (props, "the front row") are trying to defeat our opposition. We have tricks, we have moves, we have "the dark arts" of scrummaging.

When it all comes down to it, the scrum is governed by the laws of physics. To opposing forces pushing against eachother. You can tell who is getting the upper hand by looking at what is happening.
Usually on a collapsed scrum, the player who lost their footing and dropped it will be first on the ground.
You can tell a lot by looking at the hips: if a props hips are pointing outward, they were clearly not driving straight.
If someone is stood up, they got beat.

It's sad that to a percentage of players and fans the scrum is just something to get out of the way.
To me it's one of the most amazing parts of the game. I LOVE SCRUMS - there I said it.
 

gaston le gaff

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I would wear that quote on a t-shirt with pride. Ha Ha Ha!
Yes, the scrum is a massive competition. We (props, "the front row") are trying to defeat our opposition. We have tricks, we have moves, we have "the dark arts" of scrummaging.

When it all comes down to it, the scrum is governed by the laws of physics. To opposing forces pushing against eachother. You can tell who is getting the upper hand by looking at what is happening.
Usually on a collapsed scrum, the player who lost their footing and dropped it will be first on the ground.
You can tell a lot by looking at the hips: if a props hips are pointing outward, they were clearly not driving straight.
If someone is stood up, they got beat.

It's sad that to a percentage of players and fans the scrum is just something to get out of the way.
To me it's one of the most amazing parts of the game. I LOVE SCRUMS - there I said it.

could not agree more take the scrum from rugby no rugby it becomes S H RUGBY, i was told by an ex international hooker and now our coach no guessing who that is ) that everything must come from the tighthead, he goes forward the hooker and prop follow at the same pace, its a bit technical but after seeing exactly how it works i must agree, the openside must wait until the tighthead starts to advance and he follows of course everyone pushing straight. in fact once you have the perfect position which is back straight and knees well crouched, the push is straight and upwards its nearly unbeatable. especially when you have a Privat, Tchale-Watchou or Timani propelling the front 3 forward life become a lot easier for them.
 

ratsapprentice

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It's quite difficult to understand the physics/dynamics of you've never been a scrummager.

Doesn't even necessarily require scrummaging experience - more a strong understanding of bio-mechanics.
From there the "dark arts" can be taught from someone who does have experience of them.
 

Tony Manx

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The assistant refs currently don't get involved in scrums.....

Not sure I agree as you often hear on the refs system a linesman shout out a colour and a penalty given against that colour.

Also so many times the penalized prop has fallen as said because his opposite number is binding illegally on his arm even when the ref is on that side!!!

It is so complicated that most of the time the ref guesses?!!
 
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ORothlain

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It is so complicated that most of the time the ref guesses?!!
It is complicated. It's further complicated by the fact that there aren't a lot of former forwards involved in reffing (at least at the highest levels).
 

goodNumber10

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Doesn't even necessarily require scrummaging experience - more a strong understanding of bio-mechanics.
From there the "dark arts" can be taught from someone who does have experience of them.

Yeah, you're right.
 

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