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Ian Foster - Dead Man Walking

Umaga's Witness

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I can see him staying If we win convincingly without the excuse of anything more than a single yellow card from the springboks.
 

miccloarch

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I can see him staying If we win convincingly without the excuse of anything more than a single yellow card from the springboks.
Big if. Maybe the Boks don't show up, underestimate us and put in a stinker which seems unlikely. And even then it would take a small miracle for us to have the confidence to capitalize on it.

Latest rumour is he's out regardless of what happens at Ellis Park.
 
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Umaga's Witness

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If we lose, new coach or not, there needs to be a shake up of the leadership group (if indeed the new coach will even have a leadership group). The team is in a massive funk and need to be brought out if it. Certainly razor seems like the ideal person to help with that, but there needs to be some change with the leaders too. in great teams the leaders are driving a lot of the connectedness of the team - guys like nasi manu and Ben smith for the highlanders back in the day, Liam messam and Charlie ngatai in the chiefs, obviously Mcaw and many more within the recent great all blacks teams. crusaders used to, and likely still do, encourage everyone to have a voice, encouraging them all to lead in a way.

Some new players too, even if they're not the best right now, as long as they have potential. Just to get new energy in. And focus on balance please.
 

miccloarch

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If we lose, new coach or not, there needs to be a shake up of the leadership group (if indeed the new coach will even have a leadership group). The team is in a massive funk and need to be brought out if it. Certainly razor seems like the ideal person to help with that, but there needs to be some change with the leaders too. in great teams the leaders are driving a lot of the connectedness of the team - guys like nasi manu and Ben smith for the highlanders back in the day, Liam messam and Charlie ngatai in the chiefs, obviously Mcaw and many more within the recent great all blacks teams. crusaders used to, and likely still do, encourage everyone to have a voice, encouraging them all to lead in a way.

Some new players too, even if they're not the best right now, as long as they have potential. Just to get new energy in. And focus on balance please.
At what point did the senior players suddenly become bad leaders? I'll admit, it's a smaller group than previous squads which tended to have obvious leaders in multiple positions but there's still a decent amount of them who have experience captaining at provincial level. Whitelock, Savea, Smith, Tuipulotu and Colesy should all do okay under a coach they believe in. Even Sam Cane I wouldn't describe as a bad leader but he needs to be dropped, he's badly out of form and in any case isn't nearly the best 7 in New Zealand.

As for new blood, we've always been good at giving bolters a chance even if they're freaking 20 year old kids. But it's much easier to come into a winning setup than into a team with a lack of identity and whose confidence in their coach has all but disintegrated.
 

Umaga's Witness

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At what point did the senior players suddenly become bad leaders? I'll admit, it's a smaller group than previous squads which tended to have obvious leaders in multiple positions but there's still a decent amount of them who have experience captaining at provincial level. Whitelock, Savea, Smith, Tuipulotu and Colesy should all do okay under a coach they believe in. Even Sam Cane I wouldn't describe as a bad leader but he needs to be dropped, he's badly out of form and in any case isn't nearly the best 7 in New Zealand.

As for new blood, we've always been good at giving bolters a chance even if they're freaking 20 year old kids. But it's much easier to come into a winning setup than into a team with a lack of identity and whose confidence in their coach has all but disintegrated.
Its not that simple. It's not about individuals being incapable of good leadership. Different interpersonal dynamics and different circumstances can make a big difference. But also strong characters can drive continued success just as easily as continued failure - if a few dominant voices are driving things and the team is winning then those voices have strong credibility, not so if they are losing - in that case you don't want continuation, you want other voices to be heard. Look at brown with the highlanders; the team lost their mojo - he's been part of coaching groups of teams with incredible mojo, yet didn't know how to turn it around. Teams get in a funk sometimes and need the cages to be rattled to reset - changing coach may not be enough.

And what makes you think the players don't believe in the coach btw? And I'm not saying you are wrong (I have seen some evidence to suggest you might be at least partially right) but I hope you have some well thought through insight to counter the obvious publicly available facts -
- The leadership group has been consulted thoroughly and have basically been driving the decisions - to keep foster and get rid of the other coaches.
- Plumtree also praised foster - said he was the best head coach he'd ever worked with (better than Schmidt). --Mounga has come out and said foster is the right man for the job and a great coach; mounga who plays for razor would rather have foster, apparently (or wanted to be picked in the starting team - seems it worked lol)
 
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Alex Anghel

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Ian Foster should go regardless of today's result and even if the All Blacks will pull off a great escape like they did some years ago, by ways of somebody's individual brilliance.

The team badly needs someone new, someone that could motivate the players and come up with fresher playing structures and obviously better selections. As long as Sam Cane remains New Zealand skipper, the best 7 cannot play 7 and the best 8 cannot play 8, because a 7 is required to fill that slot, the best 15 cannot play 15 due to the fact that a player that played 12 the whole season is required to play 15 for the All Blacks (and the examples could go on and on).
 

miccloarch

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- The leadership group has been consulted thoroughly and have basically been driving the decisions - to keep foster and get rid of the other coaches.
NZR got rid of Fozzie's assistants to save face. They had to do something after the Ireland series.

- Plumtree also praised foster - said he was the best head coach he'd ever worked with (better than Schmidt). --Mounga has come out and said foster is the right man for the job and a great coach; mounga who plays for razor would rather have foster, apparently (or wanted to be picked in the starting team - seems it worked lol)
Mate, sorry to be blunt but those are what we call lies. People lie to get jobs, keep jobs and be part of the old boys club (you admit as much yourself with your last comment about Mo'unga). Poor Plums, they fired him anyway.
 

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So if Foster is out then who should replace him and who's available? That job will come with alot of pressure and expectation.
 

miccloarch

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So if Foster is out then who should replace him and who's available? That job will come with alot of pressure and expectation.
Scott Robertson is the man on everyone's lips and for good reason. Four Super Rugby crowns, two SR Aotearoa trophies, never lost a knockout game at SR level. Talk about a clutch serial winner. Also plays intelligent, attacking running rugby. He is and always was the perfect and obvious candidate since Steve Hansen announced his retirement. NZ Rugby is mired in politics though so they might have other ideas.
 

Bruce_ma gooshvili

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So the battle of the assistant coaches ended 1-1. Beating the world champs in their back yard in a meaningful fixture is good enough to save anyone's job surely?

Jacques Nienaber - Dead Man Walking? :p

More seriously, the real winners today were Scotland, Wales and Japan who will all now likely get a crack at an historic victory against Foster's ABs in the EOYT.

Also, if the Boks had expelled Foster they'd have increased their chances of a QF against France. So if the Boks retain their world ***le then they should look back fondly on today.
 

Umaga's Witness

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NZR got rid of Fozzie's assistants to save face. They had to do something after the Ireland series.


Mate, sorry to be blunt but those are what we call lies. People lie to get jobs, keep jobs and be part of the old boys club (you admit as much yourself with your last comment about Mo'unga). Poor Plums, they fired him anyway.
Ok, so maybe they are all lying, but what is it in the first place that makes you think the players don't believe in their coach?
Scott Robertson is the man on everyone's lips and for good reason. Four Super Rugby crowns, two SR Aotearoa trophies, never lost a knockout game at SR level. Talk about a clutch serial winner. Also plays intelligent, attacking running rugby. He is and always was the perfect and obvious candidate since Steve Hansen announced his retirement. NZ Rugby is mired in politics though so they might have other ideas.
The crusaders under robertson haven't always played intelligent attacking running rugby. Often their attacking running game has been fourth or fifth best in the country, excepting the influence of mounga. Typically they have a very strong scrum; Always their maul is amazingly good, in both attack and defence. Their efficiency at the rucks is also second to none . All this adds up to having the luxury of being able to be patient, and the confidence to execute because there is no pressure - they know they don't need to . Not having conceded a maul try in six years, when maul tries are the most common way of getting tries, is almost enough to win comps on its own Jason Ryan is the biggest hero behind the crusaders results. And just look at what he has done in a short period of time for the all blacks.

Their fluency on attack has built year after year, yes, but it has taken time. And It certainly improved after moar left.
 

miccloarch

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Maul defence is vital but I highly doubt a maul is the most common way to score a try. It's a low risk play if you do it properly and builds a good platform for attack if you don't score from it. But maul defence alone isn't going to win you anything. Forward dominance alone won't win you anything either. Putting all the strategic pieces together and getting the players in the right state of mind so they have the absolute best chance of winning is the most important thing and that's what Razor does better than anyone else in the world right now.
 

miccloarch

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nobody said that.
Did you read the linked articles?

Words from Millsy:
"[Foster] was asked last night if he thought he was going to be the coach and Mark Robinson has come out again, and we're still unclear about that," he said. "It's been a bit like that for Ian Foster - it just seems he's walking on eggshells."
 

Umaga's Witness

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Did you read the linked articles?

Words from Millsy:
"[Foster] was asked last night if he thought he was going to be the coach and Mark Robinson has come out again, and we're still unclear about that," he said. "It's been a bit like that for Ian Foster - it just seems he's walking on eggshells."
Watched the whole thing but I don't know how it was reported on. they said he should have been given performance criteria not be kept in limbo with endless reviews, eg he had to beat the boks 2-0 to stay in the job
 

miccloarch

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Watched the whole thing but I don't know how it was reported on. they said he should have been given performance criteria not be kept in limbo with endless reviews, eg he had to beat the boks 2-0 to stay in the job
And why do they expect NZ Rugby to all of a sudden be so clear in communicating their expectations when they (NZR) are responsible for the entire fiasco in the first place? The premise for promoting from within was that it worked with Hansen and it gives you stability. Well, if that stability is actually mediocrity then it's not ideal is it? It's taken them 3 years to see that. We've seen good coaches get overlooked for the top job before but they usually lost out to equally good or better candidates. The gulf between Foster and Razor (which included other worthy candidates like Gatland) was plain for all to see.
 

miccloarch

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So the battle of the assistant coaches ended 1-1. Beating the world champs in their back yard in a meaningful fixture is good enough to save anyone's job surely?

Jacques Nienaber - Dead Man Walking? :p

More seriously, the real winners today were Scotland, Wales and Japan who will all now likely get a crack at an historic victory against Foster's ABs in the EOYT.

Also, if the Boks had expelled Foster they'd have increased their chances of a QF against France. So if the Boks retain their world ***le then they should look back fondly on today.
The funny thing that Fozzie apologists don't seem to get is that his appointment wouldn't have been such a big deal if we'd won the World Cup in 2019. Three-peat done and dusted, give Foster 4 years to learn the ropes, then if he fails in 2023 no big deal.

Now however it is a big deal. Imagine the Boks doing the repeat. It'll be like 2007 all over again 🤣😢. NZR board have turned rugby in New Zealand into such a joke that a brilliant win and performance against the old foe is overshadowed by off the field nonsense and a general feeling of absolute "meh."

Appointing the assistant to the guy who failed last time out while overlooking the best coach in the country is such an obvious gaffe to anyone who doesn't suffer from the tunnel vision evident in NZ Rugby. Scotland beating the ABs at Murrayfield would be all kinds of epic.
 

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