If eddie gets sacked who should be the next England coach

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is that the classy way of saying "I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it"?
Asking for a friend.

And then there's this - which is presumably a truly in-depth analysis, and showing amazing perspicuity; and not remotely hypocritical.

Out of interest - do you generally find such comments helpful in discussion, and encouraging of debate?

No respect of that opinion lol, if you really think Lam and Baxter aren't capable of using other game plans when needed then you are massively underestimating them.

Not sure what you don't think helps discussion, Eddie doesn't have a style or plan he's executing well otherwise we'd all be able to see it. It's like he wants to bully teams but instead of picking a monster pack he picks a mobile one. Just contradicting styles vs selection. No need to get touchy about it but if you can see something that no one else can then please let us know.

 

[BPM]

But by the same reasoning, it's equally fair to say you may be massively over-estimating them ... they might well be capable of adapting their game plan/style to test rugby but there's no actual evidence to suggest they definitely are.

I don't like the way we have played under in Eddie in recent times, but **** me, I'd hate to see us play like Exeter.

I find it bizarre that anyone can criticise Eddie's style of play and then recommend Baxter who is responsible for the ugliest, most one-dimensional style of rugby possible.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

But by the same reasoning, it's equally fair to say you may be massively over-estimating them ... they might well be capable of adapting their game plan/style to test rugby but there's no actual evidence to suggest they definitely are.

I don't like the way we have played under in Eddie in recent times, but **** me, I'd hate to see us play like Exeter.

I find it bizarre that anyone can criticise Eddie's style of play and then recommend Baxter who is responsible for the ugliest, most one-dimensional style of rugby possible.

But Eddie doesn't have a style and I think that's the point. If we played a kicking style then selected a monster pack, Itoje a 6, launchbery and Stoke or Attwood in the row etc, a proper loose head then I'd get it. Stick Farrell at 10, a big 12 and some kick and chase players that can work.
On the flip side if we wanted to play a more loose game and picked a really mobile pack, Simmonds at 8, Itoje and Ribbons etc and some skilful backs looking at Smith/ Ford then I'd also get it but we don't really do either.

The autumn games were boring but we didn't even pick the best team to execute the game plan, then in the 6 nations we didn't have a game plan at all. Kicking the ball every time you get it, isn't a game plan.

I'm not asking for Baxter and Lam but we really need someone to challenge Eddie's lack of anything and some terrible selection

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

But by the same reasoning, it's equally fair to say you may be massively over-estimating them ... they might well be capable of adapting their game plan/style to test rugby but there's no actual evidence to suggest they definitely are.

I don't like the way we have played under in Eddie in recent times, but **** me, I'd hate to see us play like Exeter.

I find it bizarre that anyone can criticise Eddie's style of play and then recommend Baxter who is responsible for the ugliest, most one-dimensional style of rugby possible.

To my mind Baxter's a non starter due to his narrow range of experience.

But his teams prove that a clear, fairly simple, game plan, with everyone knowing their roles, executed well is bloody hard to stop. Saracens have also shown that and it's also true at international level.

Part of Eng's problems at the moment seems to be that they are missing that clarity.

Chiefs have a bullying, well organised pack with some stardust behind in Hogg, Slade and (occasionally) Nowell. There are worse models to aspire to.

Chiefs are a bit like the Boks. You know what's coming, but stopping it is a different matter entirely.

 

[BPM]

@ living sacrifice ... It looks like you're switching the focus of your argument because you know I'm right ...

Although I can see your point to a degree. I'm not sure the selection is 'terrible' TBH, but I agree that the game plan is not getting the best out of the players we have.

I find that disappointing because Eddie's 'style' is supposed to be about creating the best game plan for what he has. He did it brilliantly with Japan and in the early days with England.

I just don't understand why he doesn't think we're capable of playing with any flair or skill when actually we look so much better when we do. Surely there is a happy medium - play the percentages when you need to, but for god's sake play rugby.

 

[BPM]

To my mind Baxter's a non starter due to his narrow range of experience.

But his teams prove that a clear, fairly simple, game plan, with everyone knowing their roles, executed well is bloody hard to stop. Saracens have also shown that and it's also true at international level.

Part of Eng's problems at the moment seems to be that they are missing that clarity.

Chiefs have a bullying, well organised pack with some stardust behind in Hogg, Slade and (occasionally) Nowell. There are worse models to aspire to.

Chiefs are a bit like the Boks. You know what's coming, but stopping it is a different matter entirely.

That may be true to some extent, but when it is stopped and Exeter's game plan doesn't work out, there isn't much of a plan B. It used to be 'give it to Cordero' in the hope he could work some individual magic. Now it's 'give it to Hogg'. All game plans need to evolve and I haven't seen Exeter's show any real evidence of that.

I'd be fascinated to see who Baxter would pick if he was in charge of England, but I'd also be really worried it would be the same Exeter grind fest.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

@ living sacrifice ... It looks like you're switching the focus of your argument because you know I'm right ...

Although I can see your point to a degree. I'm not sure the selection is 'terrible' TBH, but I agree that the game plan is not getting the best out of the players we have.

I find that disappointing because Eddie's 'style' is supposed to be about creating the best game plan for what he has. He did it brilliantly with Japan and in the early days with England.

I just don't understand why he doesn't think we're capable of playing with any flair or skill when actually we look so much better when we do. Surely there is a happy medium - play the percentages when you need to, but for god's sake play rugby.

Don't mean to be switching it, just probably not articulating myself very well while trying on here and listening to a work conference call.

For me, we need a style and tactics and we need to select a squad to match that. His selections are never really our best 15 and really he lacks a game plan and so we don't see a squad selected to execute it. The main thing is his constant switch between Ford and Farrell. They play so differently why don't we just pick one and then pick a back up in the same mould. I just never get what jones is actually trying to achieve.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Difference is can Baxter build what he did with the chiefs with England?

Exeter whole thing is they have drilled and drilled and drilled their team to the point where all their players can slot into their teams seamlessly.

Can you do that with 2 weeks before a six nations?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

That may be true to some extent, but when it is stopped and Exeter's game plan doesn't work out, there isn't much of a plan B. It used to be 'give it to Cordero' in the hope he could work some individual magic. Now it's 'give it to Hogg'. All game plans need to evolve and I haven't seen Exeter's show any real evidence of that.

I'd be fascinated to see who Baxter would pick if he was in charge of England, but I'd also be really worried it would be the same Exeter grind fest.

Definitely fair and that's a bit of a failing on Baxter's part. But you need to have a cohesive plan A before worrying too much about plan B.

One of the consistent criticisms about Jones reign has been exactly that, the team hasn't been able / empowered to change styles as the situation has demanded.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

People like to bring up Eddie has taken England to it's 2 worst finishes in the 6N's.
But don't like to mention he is the only coach since clive woodward to win the six nations 3 times.

Lancaster - 0
Johnson - 1
Ashton - 0
Robinson - 0
SCW - 3

I do understand the Question of is his time up, but some perspective IMO.

 

[BPM]

I agree, but I put a lot of that on the players. I don't honestly believe that Eddie is demanding that obvious overlaps are ignored in favour 50/50 kicks.

I think there's a lack of ownership from the players. Often overlaps are missed because the player with the ball doesn't even look at what's in front of him and just blindly follows a pre-planned script.

Eddie might be telling them to follow a tactical blueprint, but I can't believe that has 0 flexibility at all. Is he really going to complain if we score a try by running the ball instead of kicking?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Difference is can Baxter build what he did with the chiefs with England?

Exeter whole thing is they have drilled and drilled and drilled their team to the point where all their players can slot into their teams seamlessly.

Can you do that with 2 weeks before a six nations?

Exactly this. I love Baxter and what he's done for Exeter but he'd be an awful international coach.

 

[Which Tyler]

I do understand the Question of is his time up, but some perspective IMO.

This bit in particular.

Claiming that Eddie doesn't have a plan, doesn't have a game-plan, doesn't know what he's doing is pure hyperbole, and of no benefit to anyone.
Claiming that you disagree with his plan, don't like his game-plan, and can't understand what he's doing... is an entirely different thing altogether - and an absolutely fair point for discussion; whilst denying the existence of a plan leaves no room for anything beyond shouting / insulting people.

Some posters may like those shit-shows; but it really isn't helpful.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

1 Thing that greatly concerns me about English rugby is looking at the club captains.
Bath - Ewels
Bristol - Luatua
Exeter - Yeandle
Gloucster - Ludlow
Quins - Lewies
Tigers - Youngs
Irish - Cowan, Jackson, Phipps, Rogerson
Falcons - Wilson
Saints - Ludlam, Waller
Sale - Ross
Wasps - Young
Warriors - Hill
Saracens (last year) - Barritt

How many can you say would get into a England 23?
Whereas 2003 squad you had at least 7/8 as captains or recently where/became club captains

Where's the leadership coming from? Farrell and Itoje?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't Launchbury Wasps captain? Or was that only when Young was out?

Leadership is definitely an issue in the side, though

 

[ncurd]

This bit in particular.
Claiming that Eddie doesn't have a plan, doesn't have a game-plan, doesn't know what he's doing is pure hyperbole, and of no benefit to anyone.
Claiming that you disagree with his plan, don't like his game-plan, and can't understand what he's doing... is an entirely different thing altogether - and an absolutely fair point for discussion; whilst denying the existence of a plan leaves no room for anything beyond shouting.

I think its more whatever the plan is its evidently failing thats because there is no tangible evidence that his stated is having impact on the field. He said he wanted to work on the basics and defence then why are both in a shocking state? Unlike 4 years ago he said he was going to beast them and they look like a team out of gas. He was also probably saved by 2 championships with a GS and record equally win streak. He had a huge more credit in the bank and his last real note worthy thing was the SF of 18 months ago and England haven't looked like going forwards since.

 

[ncurd]

1 Thing that greatly concerns me about English rugby is looking at the club captains.
Bath - Ewels
Bristol - Luatua
Exeter - Yeandle
Gloucster - Ludlow
Quins - Lewies
Tigers - Youngs
Irish - Cowan, Jackson, Phipps, Rogerson
Falcons - Wilson
Saints - Ludlam, Waller
Sale - Ross
Wasps - Young
Warriors - Hill
Saracens (last year) - Barritt

How many can you say would get into a England 23?
Whereas 2003 squad you had at least 7/8 as captains or recently where/became club captains

Where's the leadership coming from? Farrell and Itoje?

Is this a problem with 'Team England' when you know your going to be without your captain for x weeks in a season so you pick the guy whos less likely to be called up to international duty so hes the mainstay of the squad. Theres a similar more obvious problem with Cricket (as the captain is more pivotal) where no club captains play for England cause the England guys barely play for clubs.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think its more whatever the plan is its evidently failing thats because there is no tangible evidence that his stated is having impact on the field. He said he wanted to work on the basics and defence then why are both in a shocking state? Unlike 4 years ago he said he was going to beast them and they look like a team out of gas. He was also probably saved by 2 championships with a GS and record equally win streak. He had a huge more credit in the bank and his last real note worthy thing was the SF of 18 months ago and England haven't looked like going forwards since.

See, that, I agree with almost entirely - "he has a plan, but it's failing, and I don't think I'd like it even if was working".

Then as to whether we should keep him on; I seem to think his credit in the bank is greater than you do; and I seem to think that the credit erodes slower too.
On top of that, I wonder what message it sends out that a 12-month win ratio of 70% is bad enough to get you fired.

But then, I'm also a fairly forgiving type in life outside of rugby - I take the view that anyone can make a mistake; and anyone with credit in the bank deserves the chance to put them right.
In this case, his paymasters judge him by objective results, not subjective performance; and the 6N was categoricaly a mistake (mitgated by Sarries and Covid; but I'm not personally prepared to cut him any slack for those).
IMO, he deserves another international window to put things right after that mistake. This summer doesn't count due to Lions, and where we're touring (unless he actually loses in America!), so he gets the Autumn.

 

[BPM]

See I'm not the most forgiving but I like to think I'm a realist.

We have the biggest player base in world rugby. While that counts for something, it doesn't mean we can have the lofty expectation of winning every 6 Nations and being in every World Cup final. If we make the England job a win or get fired situation, it's really not going to be an attractive gig.

As it is, I think it's a very attractive job. A good coach would have to fancy their chances of winning some major silverware with this group of players. Plus, if Eddie does go, they'd be taking over at a point where there is obvious scope for improvement. Compare that to Pivac taking the Wales job from Gatland who'd just signed off with a RWC semi final ...

I absolutely agree with your point above re. the game plan. I don't like it and I don't think it's working but it does exist.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I agree, but I put a lot of that on the players. I don't honestly believe that Eddie is demanding that obvious overlaps are ignored in favour 50/50 kicks.

I think there's a lack of ownership from the players. Often overlaps are missed because the player with the ball doesn't even look at what's in front of him and just blindly follows a pre-planned script.

Eddie might be telling them to follow a tactical blueprint, but I can't believe that has 0 flexibility at all. Is he really going to complain if we score a try by running the ball instead of kicking?

That opens up a fundamental question.

Are the players not good enough? In which case why he has he stuck with so many for so long?

Or are they operating in an environment where they are too scared of the ramifications of going off piste? To answer your question with a question.....is he going to complain like hell if we don't score a try by running the ball instead of kicking?

This bit in particular.
Claiming that Eddie doesn't have a plan, doesn't have a game-plan, doesn't know what he's doing is pure hyperbole, and of no benefit to anyone.
Claiming that you disagree with his plan, don't like his game-plan, and can't understand what he's doing... is an entirely different thing altogether - and an absolutely fair point for discussion; whilst denying the existence of a plan leaves no room for anything beyond shouting.

I'm in no doubt he has a plan. The players just don't seem to be willing / able to buy into it.

Leadership is definitely a big issue. Launchbury would seem to be the obvious candidate to take us through to the next RWC.

I started typing this ages ago, but work got in the way. Probably been overtaken by events!