• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

International coach of the year

YoungScud

Academy Player
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
382
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Glasgow

Personally, what seems to me to be more important when giving an award such as this is the question of what makes a great coach. Should the Coach of the Year be the coach of the Team of the Year, in which case it's likely to be Hansen or Cheika? Does that automatically make him the best coach or is there a degree of luck involved in that? By that, I mean is he lucky enough to be coaching a side with a plethora of talent available? If that's the case, the surely a coach who has much less to work with, but gets a great deal from limited resources is the greater.

It's certainly true that something is rotten in the state of NH, and it's probably not hard to figure out that a great deal of our problems stem from the fact that the AP and Top 14 adhere to a brand of rugby which doesn't serve the national interests. For Cotter, he's probably lucked out with Scotland because he's been able to basically plunder the depth of talent available from Glasgow, and to a slightly lesser degree, Edinburgh (basically the front row). However, he has turned the team around in a short space of time, and that despite the continued malevolent presence of the Fat Bluffer. He's also shown faith in Greg Laidlaw, a player recently villified by most Scottish fans, now a nominee for World Player of the Year. That's not bad. As for Eddie Jones, where do you start? He seems to be something of a miracle worker. Come to that, the Uruguayan coach deserves some recognition.

What I'm saying is, I don't believe it's at all punishing excellence to suggest that the resources available to a coach ought to be a factor in deciding who the best are.
 

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,855
Reaction score
2,354
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Personally, what seems to me to be more important when giving an award such as this is the question of what makes a great coach. Should the Coach of the Year be the coach of the Team of the Year, in which case it's likely to be Hansen or Cheika? Does that automatically make him the best coach or is there a degree of luck involved in that? By that, I mean is he lucky enough to be coaching a side with a plethora of talent available? If that's the case, the surely a coach who has much less to work with, but gets a great deal from limited resources is the greater.
I think your forgetting Australia were in a right mess less than a year ago, nobody had them pegged as potential RC or RWC champions. Smart money was on them coming second in the group A and going out to SA.

Cotter on the other hand? Last-place 6 nations, managed to almost beat Aus (but Scotland for years have failed to get over the line against a lot of teams so no real improvement there) and managed to not screw up the 2nd place against teams they should be beating anyway.
 

YoungScud

Academy Player
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
382
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Glasgow

I think your forgetting Australia were in a right mess less than a year ago, nobody had them pegged as potential RC or RWC champions. Smart money was on them coming second in the group A and going out to SA.

Cotter on the other hand? Last-place 6 nations, managed to almost beat Aus (but Scotland for years have failed to get over the line against a lot of teams so no real improvement there) and managed to not screw up the 2nd place against teams they should be beating anyway.


No, I think what you're forgetting is not to be such a dick every time I post. Your inability to see the change in the Scotland team (you know, that one that actually managed to get out of the pool stages) is forgivable, since you apparently haven't the foggiest of what you're talking about. I didn't criticise Michale Cheika, nor Steve Hansen for that matter as coaches. I didn't even criticise their being put forward for the award. What I did do was offer an alternative view, referencing at least three other international coaches. Now, I don't expect everyone to share my views (wouldn't that be a boring world?) but it shouldn't be too much to ask that you at least hold back on the snidiness a little. What am I saying?
 

RedruthRFC

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
1,853
Reaction score
240
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

England

FWIW, the turnaround in Scotland has been impressive IMO, Cotter certainly deserves credit for this, however as this award is judged over the whole year, a poor showing in the Six Nations writes him off from serious consideration at the top of the heap. The same must also go for Eddie Jones based on Japan's underwhelming Pacific Nations.
 

YoungScud

Academy Player
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
382
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Glasgow

FWIW, the turnaround in Scotland has been impressive IMO, Cotter certainly deserves credit for this, however as this award is judged over the whole year, a poor showing in the Six Nations writes him off from serious consideration at the top of the heap. The same must also go for Eddie Jones based on Japan's underwhelming Pacific Nations.

Now that's reasoning. Trust you to be the calming influence.
 

RugbyTackle91

Academy Player
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Messages
196
Reaction score
48
Country Flag

Argentina

No, I think what you're forgetting is not to be such a dick every time I post. Your inability to see the change in the Scotland team (you know, that one that actually managed to get out of the pool stages) is forgivable, since you apparently haven't the foggiest of what you're talking about. I didn't criticise Michale Cheika, nor Steve Hansen for that matter as coaches. I didn't even criticise their being put forward for the award. What I did do was offer an alternative view, referencing at least three other international coaches. Now, I don't expect everyone to share my views (wouldn't that be a boring world?) but it shouldn't be too much to ask that you at least hold back on the snidiness a little. What am I saying?

I think he has a fair point to be honest mate, you can't really say Scotland have turned around..the 6 nations campaign was abysmal and they were extremely lucky to get out of the World Cup group. If Japan had a fresh team in the Scotland match they could well of gone through, not to mention Samoa almost booting them out
 

YoungScud

Academy Player
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
382
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Glasgow

I think he has a fair point to be honest mate, you can't really say Scotland have turned around..the 6 nations campaign was abysmal and they were extremely lucky to get out of the World Cup group. If Japan had a fresh team in the Scotland match they could well of gone through, not to mention Samoa almost booting them out

I disagree. When someone acts the goat as regularly as this, I feel it's because there is no point to be made. Firstly, the 6 Nations from a Scottish perspective was very different from previous dire seasons. For the first time in many years, those of us who grew up watching Scotland actually started to believe that something fundamental had changed. Our RWC results, far from being the way you describe, vindicated that feeling. Are you seriously saying Scotland were the lucky ones here? If you are, please don't pick my lottery numbers for me. Anyone who read these forums before Scotland's quarter final could have been forgiven for thinking it was some 3rd XV club side playing Australia, such little credence was given to our chances of beating Australia. And yet... So, please don't cry on my shoulder about the unlucky Japanese. At the time the pools were drawn, we were third seeds, so on paper it was Japan which underpeformed, not Scotland. Nice try though.
 

Raz

Academy Player
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

No, it absolutely does not! Think about it, what have these teams done this year prior to the RWC final? They have each won their groups, a QF, and a SF. Before the RWC they went H2H twice and shared the results 1 each. Other than that if memory serves me right, they each won the remainder of their games. Therefore this RWC final is what seperates the two teams and coaches this year IMO.

Again, the issue I have with your logic is that you are effectively dismissing excellence. You could have a coach who has a perfect record, doesnt lose a single game all year, wins the RWC away from home and is the first coach to defend the cup, does everything there is to do in the game in a calendar year but say, wel nol, sorry, you arent the coach of the year cause this other guy had a sh ! t team and made them better. For me that is most improved coach of the year or something. Not coach of the year.

So no, I'm not discounting coaches who have crap teams to begin with, I'm rewarding excellence. That's what the award should be for IMO, and that is what the best coach should be, excellent!!

Anway, I can see we will never get anywhere on this. They are all worthy nominees and I do see ur guys points of view, I just strongly disagree with them.


You are right, they are all worthy nominees.

I apologise because I didn't make myself clear enough, I think Hansen would be a worthy winner and wouldn't feel that it was poorly awarded if he got it. The point remains though that many on here are being very dismissive of the idea that coach of the year could be rightfully awarded to Chieka or Jones which it could be and would not be a travesty in the slightest.

If this was team of the year it would hands down be New Zealand. Coach of the year implies the individual showing themselves to be the best coach which there is as strong an argument for aone with a not as good team taking them further than reasonably expected as there is for taking the dominant team to its natural conclusion.

Most improved coach would be if a previously poor coach showed great improvement. Maybe something for Lancaster...
 

RugbyTackle91

Academy Player
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Messages
196
Reaction score
48
Country Flag

Argentina

I disagree. When someone acts the goat as regularly as this, I feel it's because there is no point to be made. Firstly, the 6 Nations from a Scottish perspective was very different from previous dire seasons. For the first time in many years, those of us who grew up watching Scotland actually started to believe that something fundamental had changed. Our RWC results, far from being the way you describe, vindicated that feeling. Are you seriously saying Scotland were the lucky ones here? If you are, please don't pick my lottery numbers for me. Anyone who read these forums before Scotland's quarter final could have been forgiven for thinking it was some 3rd XV club side playing Australia, such little credence was given to our chances of beating Australia. And yet... So, please don't cry on my shoulder about the unlucky Japanese. At the time the pools were drawn, we were third seeds, so on paper it was Japan which underpeformed, not Scotland. Nice try though.

Japan had not won a World Cup game in 20 + years, if you are going to talk about transforming a squad I think you have to look past Scotland, they achieved nothing more than they usually do in a World Cup. I personally wouldn't say they have had some amazing resurrection..maybe they are on their way with Fern but it is way too early to consider him coach of the year based on what has actually been achieved vs coaches like Cheika and Eddie Jones.
 

YoungScud

Academy Player
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
382
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

Scotland

Club or Nation

Glasgow

Japan had not won a World Cup game in 20 + years, if you are going to talk about transforming a squad I think you have to look past Scotland, they achieved nothing more than they usually do in a World Cup. I personally wouldn't say they have had some amazing resurrection..maybe they are on their way with Fern but it is way too early to consider him coach of the year based on what has actually been achieved vs coaches like Cheika and Eddie Jones.


Yes, they usually come within a whisker of a semi final by beating Australia. Have you been watching world cups long? However, in answer to the emphasised part of your post, that's exactly what I did do, mentioning Jones and the Uruguayan coach as worthy of at least some credit. Did you read that, or just respond to the unreasonable Scot making a polite case for cosnsidering a coach whom I think deserves it. I was also trying to point out that there are better ways to make a point than by being a pisspot about it. You personally might not say there has been a resurrection, but I personally would.
 

RugbyTackle91

Academy Player
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Messages
196
Reaction score
48
Country Flag

Argentina

Yes, they usually come within a whisker of a semi final by beating Australia. Have you been watching world cups long? However, in answer to the emphasised part of your post, that's exactly what I did do, mentioning Jones and the Uruguayan coach as worthy of at least some credit. Did you read that, or just respond to the unreasonable Scot making a polite case for cosnsidering a coach whom I think deserves it. I was also trying to point out that there are better ways to make a point than by being a pisspot about it. You personally might not say there has been a resurrection, but I personally would.

You are hardly being polite in your conviction, calling people "dicks" but okay. I am just saying last in the 6 nations and out before the semis is just following suit of previous years, the manner of the defeat is neither here nor there. It looks as though he will be a good coach for Scotland but no where near coach of the year this time around. I am obviously not alone in my opinion and I was simply saying the guy had a point in response to you losing your cool over it.
 

ABs2011

First XV
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

@ABs2011,

I think the question most of us have about Hansen is simply how do you quantify how much of the ABs success is down to his influence versus all the structures he inherited and the rich talent at his disposal. The TEAM is clearly worthy of being team of the year for excellence if it wins, but from a coaching standpoint I think it's just a little harder to pin down how much Hansen is responsible for when the team he inherited already held every trophy they competed for.

I can see we won't agree, but I do take issue with this notion that we're some how penalizing excellence, as I think it's more a matter of other coaches having an influence that appears much more obviously down to them.

Fair enough mate. I guess what I am saying and where I am coming from is that I think the enormity of the challenge, success and excellence involved in a RWC winning campaign by default demonstraights how good a team and a coach is and puts them at the top of the pack. It's a tough tournament for any team to win, even the ABS. Over here it pretty much means everything. Hansen will be hailed an absolute genius if we win from the way he nursed certain players through the last 4 years, to the number of players he has brought through the system in his coaching tenure, to the interesting tactics he employed in pool play, how he has managed to by an large have the entire team in form come finals time, and just the way he has the team gelled both on and off the field. Chieka has had an even greater task, I 100% agree, but for me the two will be differentiated on the field tomorrow.
 

ABs2011

First XV
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

@sanzar @Raz

Now that we've had the luxury of seeing the final play out, I wonder how you are feeling about coach of the year now?

Without downplaying the fantastic season Chieka has had (or Jones for that matter), to me that final was the final piece in completeing the puzzle of Hansen Genius. Without knowing the result of the final one needed faith that everything was on track, that the Sydeny result was just a blip on the journey to the RWC, and that Coach Hansen knew what he was doing all along.

In the end it turns out Hansen and co had a master plan and executed it to perfection. The way the final played out was the exclamation mark and a demonstration of dominance both for the ABs as a team but also for Hansen as coach.

That's my opinion anyway, was just wondering whether you guys still felt Hansen doesnt deserve the title of best coach in the world still?
 

nzlizard

Bench Player
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
942
Reaction score
9
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Chiefs

Has to be Hansen, the dust has settled and he has been left standing as last man.

Sure the other guys did a great job, but how can a WC winning coach not get coach of the year?

You would say AB's for team for the year as well.
 

El Mago

Academy Player
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Leicester

I agree with those arguing for Hansen. I know there wasn't the huge expectations of four years ago, but the All Blacks were a slick machine and a class above their opponents.

I've got some love for the Pumas going on at the minute and I think Hourcade deserves a bit of a mention. I know it was an abridged Rugby Championship this year, but the Pumas avoided the wooden spoon for the first time, beat the Boks on their own turf for the first time and played some really adventurous rugby in the World Cup.
 

TRF C A Iversen

Rugby Gaming Nut
TRF Legend
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Highlanders


I think this might be because he's taken a team and built them up significantly from where they were. He had a lot of work to do and ideas to instill. Hansen has been great and there can't have been much in it, but I think it's perhaps a case of the All Blacks already being so good prior to this year and Cheika has had a harder assignment. Good luck to him and well done!
 

RoosTah

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
2,194
Reaction score
37
Country Flag

Australia

Club or Nation

Sydney

Yeah I'd very much suspected this might have happened. As I'd said previously on this thread, when a side is already in possession of every trophy they contest when a new coach takes over, it's a little hard to quantify how much continued success is down to the new coach versus all the players and structures he has inherited.
 

ABs2011

First XV
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Hurricanes

Yeah I'd very much suspected this might have happened. As I'd said previously on this thread, when a side is already in possession of every trophy they contest when a new coach takes over, it's a little hard to quantify how much continued success is down to the new coach versus all the players and structures he has inherited.

Boy did I get this wone wrong!! Congratulations to Cheika, he had a fantastic year, and as you said all along his efforts as a coach are evident in the improved performance of the OZ team. I stand by my comments earlier that I personally think Hansen should have got it, but clearly I was wrong.

Not that I agree with everything in this article, but there are some interesting points made (not sure Hansen will be to fussed by the whole thing):
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ve-hansen-at-world-rugby-awards-is-a-disgrace
 

TRF C A Iversen

Rugby Gaming Nut
TRF Legend
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,013
Reaction score
0
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Highlanders

Boy did I get this wone wrong!! Congratulations to Cheika, he had a fantastic year, and as you said all along his efforts as a coach are evident in the improved performance of the OZ team. I stand by my comments earlier that I personally think Hansen should have got it, but clearly I was wrong.

Not that I agree with everything in this article, but there are some interesting points made (not sure Hansen will be to fussed by the whole thing):
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ve-hansen-at-world-rugby-awards-is-a-disgrace

That piece seems overly entitled and a bit over the top. It glosses over Cheika and seems a bit one-eyed. Agree with the rest of your post however. It was a really close-run thing to me.
 

Primary

The Rugby Forum Assistant
Here are some related products that The Rugby Forum members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to The Rugby Forum’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to The Rugby Forum discussions about these products.

 
 
Top