Ireland v New Zealand (13/11)

[big ginger 8]

Ireland's attack flourishes as it becomes less reliant on Johnny Sexton

With ball-playing forwards and new playmakers in the backline, Ireland are more unpredictable.

www.the42.ie

Will be interesting how the attack goes against Argentina presumably at least without Sexton.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

After how many times in the game felt like a repeat of 2013 up until half time... I'm blown away by the intensity in the second half. Relentless.

Now my question is.. how much does this type of performance take out of a team? Is it sustainable playing like this, mentally and physically? Felt like we barely took a second to kick for territory and take a breather. Maybe we can do so against other teams other than NZ.

A player I don't think has been mentioned much is Keenan.. I think Keenan deserves a massive shout out. He's been so solid and a really strong part of Irelands attack as mentioned in the article posted above. Genuinely think he's one of our best players currently, doesn't seem long ago we were trying to fit Conway at 15.

 

[NZbloke]

Now my question is.. how much does this type of performance take out of a team? Is it sustainable playing like this, mentally and physically? Felt like we barely took a second to kick for territory and take a breather. Maybe we can do so against other teams other than NZ.

All depends on how much possession you get in each game - in this one you had a ton of ball, the fact is though the team that has to tackle as much as we did is going to get far more fatigued than the team dominating, amazed with all the tackling we had to do the winning margin wasn't much more.

Great urgency & energy shown by the Irish forwards... our forward pack didn't do the hard yakka, looked like they went walkabout.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Also what the **** was that by Coles on Bealham at very end of the match? Grabbing his hair / collar and throwing him to the ground before turning away while the ball is being kicked out at 80. Absolutely unnecessary and futile - complete thug. Bealham barely made contact with him so it was clearly just being bitter for being battered for 80 minutes. Hate **** like that. Bealham should be over celebrating with his teammates instead of getting into a scuffle over *literally nothing other than Coles being a sore loser*.

Doesn't make the best impression of his considering his comments on Sexton during the game either calling him a 'C U Next Tuesday'. Poor form.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

his comments on Sexton during the game either calling him a 'C U Next Tuesday'.

To be fair that was great

Far too much whining to referees, even after the referee has politely told them to eff off

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

To be fair that was great

Far too much whining to referees, even after the referee has politely told them to eff off

Think I'd have something to say if I was being repeatedly targeted off the ball especially considering how often it happens to him. Not sure the c word was appropriate either.

 

[jcahill1]

Think I'd have something to say if I was being repeatedly targeted off the ball especially considering how often it happens to him. Not sure the c word was appropriate either.

In fairness don't think it has the same connotations in NZ. Thought it was funny myself, mostly because he clearly shouldn't have been saying it

 

[corny]

To be fair that was great

Far too much whining to referees, even after the referee has politely told them to eff off

I agree, i thought it was hilarious. But it was rich coming from Coles. From the second he came onto to the pitch he did not shut up to the referee.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Watched the extended highlights. Don't think it gives much an impression of the game but I just have one rules query. The first 3 points for NZ, the Irish #4 lock lets go of the player once the ref calls tackle made. He is then pinged for not getting away it seems but as I understand it with him still being very much on his feet (standing upright FFS) he is fully entitled to stad his ground and even go for the ball isn't he or am I missing something?

He releases the tackled player and then an All Black prop pulls him through to the AB's side of the ruck/maul. He makes no effort to go for the ball, because that would be illegal (ruck formed), but Ref penalises for merely being there. It's a pedantic, poor decision by Ref.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Great game, enjoyed watching that

I enjoyed watching the England v Wallaby game, but as a passionate All Black supporter I didn't enjoy the Irish Test one bit. We were smashed!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I enjoyed watching the England v Wallaby game, but as a passionate All Black supporter I didn't enjoy the Irish Test one bit. We were smashed!

as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, some of us can enjoy a good game of rugby...might have preferred a different result but there was some good rugby played

 

[munstermuffin]

Looking at stats. Wow I knew watch the game it was a beat down but like the stat BOD highlighted especially regards tackles.
Like have we ever been as dominant against a true tier 1 team like that.
And again alot questioned Farrell for bringing in Mike Catt, for using Paulie as forwards coach, for some of his selections.

Facts are Andy Farrell is developing in to a pretty shrewd Head Coach and has delivered on following Schmidt.
Lets not fool ourselves it will always be a challenge now to stay at this level BUT Schmidt played a very structured style and it was hard watching at times but effective. This coaching team seems to have built on that and used them foundations but used a very fun attacking style.
Like would I be right in saying it was very late before we started box kicking when it was basically protect lead.

On English coaches from RWC 2015. Serious question does this say the players were issue too back then in English squad. Like Catt has had good start here and was ok in Italy, Rowntree has made great strides with our pack here in Munster, Lancaster has been Leinsters best signing in the post Schmidt era and Farrell has delivered well too.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Looking at stats. Wow I knew watch the game it was a beat down but like the stat BOD highlighted especially regards tackles.
Like have we ever been as dominant against a true tier 1 team like that.
And again alot questioned Farrell for bringing in Mike Catt, for using Paulie as forwards coach, for some of his selections.

Facts are Andy Farrell is developing in to a pretty shrewd Head Coach and has delivered on following Schmidt.
Lets not fool ourselves it will always be a challenge now to stay at this level BUT Schmidt played a very structured style and it was hard watching at times but effective. This coaching team seems to have built on that and used them foundations but used a very fun attacking style.
Like would I be right in saying it was very late before we started box kicking when it was basically protect lead.

On English coaches from RWC 2015. Serious question does this say the players were issue too back then in English squad. Like Catt has had good start here and was ok in Italy, Rowntree has made great strides with our pack here in Munster, Lancaster has been Leinsters best signing in the post Schmidt era and Farrell has delivered well too.

I think it was a mix, I think the players we have available now are better but, as the years following 2015 showed, we definitely had the players then. What England lacked was the cutting edge and the ability to grind out the wins in the tight games, which they gained when Jones first took over. Lancaster also must carry a lot of the criticism as he bottled it big time. England had been developing a set style of play which had been successful but not quite the finished article, always coming 2nd in the 6N. When the world cup came, that all got thrown out the window and we played a game that was not one we had used for the past 4 years. Tellingly Farrell at 10 in particular was a big mistake (our record with Farrell at 10 is much worse than Ford at 10).

Lancaster is gone for good, he will not want to be involved in the England setup ever again. I think he is very skilled but he doesn't seem to have that stubborn self belief to really be a head coach. Farrell did have that but it was to the detriment of the team as it seems defensive considerations were overriding everything else.

Also you have to match a coaching style with a team philosophy and players. It may simply be that the English coaches of the 2015 team were better suited to the Irish mentality than an English one. Ultimately we will have to wait and see how Ireland do in the next world cup. For all you know, Farrell and Catt could bottle it again and Ireland could crash out in the group stages...

 

[jcahill1]

Looking at stats. Wow I knew watch the game it was a beat down but like the stat BOD highlighted especially regards tackles.
Like have we ever been as dominant against a true tier 1 team like that.
And again alot questioned Farrell for bringing in Mike Catt, for using Paulie as forwards coach, for some of his selections.

Facts are Andy Farrell is developing in to a pretty shrewd Head Coach and has delivered on following Schmidt.
Lets not fool ourselves it will always be a challenge now to stay at this level BUT Schmidt played a very structured style and it was hard watching at times but effective. This coaching team seems to have built on that and used them foundations but used a very fun attacking style.
Like would I be right in saying it was very late before we started box kicking when it was basically protect lead.

On English coaches from RWC 2015. Serious question does this say the players were issue too back then in English squad. Like Catt has had good start here and was ok in Italy, Rowntree has made great strides with our pack here in Munster, Lancaster has been Leinsters best signing in the post Schmidt era and Farrell has delivered well too.

Interesting point re the England 2015 coaching staff.

However England were relatively successful not including said world cup, essentially equal to Ireland for that period. The collapse in the world cup is a huge blot, but we've no assurance that the same thing wouldn't happen again to those coaches!

 

[miccloarch]

ABs got what they deserved. Stupid governing body, inept head coach (though not his fault he was hired). Well done Eire.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think it was a mix, I think the players we have available now are better but, as the years following 2015 showed, we definitely had the players then. What England lacked was the cutting edge and the ability to grind out the wins in the tight games, which they gained when Jones first took over. Lancaster also must carry a lot of the criticism as he bottled it big time. England had been developing a set style of play which had been successful but not quite the finished article, always coming 2nd in the 6N. When the world cup came, that all got thrown out the window and we played a game that was not one we had used for the past 4 years. Tellingly Farrell at 10 in particular was a big mistake (our record with Farrell at 10 is much worse than Ford at 10).

Lancaster is gone for good, he will not want to be involved in the England setup ever again. I think he is very skilled but he doesn't seem to have that stubborn self belief to really be a head coach. Farrell did have that but it was to the detriment of the team as it seems defensive considerations were overriding everything else.

Also you have to match a coaching style with a team philosophy and players. It may simply be that the English coaches of the 2015 team were better suited to the Irish mentality than an English one. Ultimately we will have to wait and see how Ireland do in the next world cup. For all you know, Farrell and Catt could bottle it again and Ireland could crash out in the group stages...

Dont't get me wrong not saying coaches are 100% in right. Like the Burgess call was mad too at that RWC but it seemed the players got off scot free which isn't right.
AT the end Ireland may 100% bottle it. We usually do. We did under Schmidt at RWC but that wouldn't define him as a failure.
Agree also on the philosophy matching team etc but it is interesting debate.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Said it 100 times: Lancaster doesn't work in an RFU environment
Not enough to access to the players/power over the culture

Could work in an IRFU environment where they have power over the clubs, but there's a reason why he's gone into a club environment and looked fantastic

I'm not surprised Farrell and Catt have succeeded elsewhere, tbh - they're good coaches
Farrell Sr. in an environment without Farrell Jr. was always going to see him coach a different way

 

[munstermuffin]

Said it 100 times: Lancaster doesn't work in an RFU environment
Not enough to access to the players/power over the culture

Could work in an IRFU environment where they have power over the clubs, but there's a reason why he's gone into a club environment and looked fantastic

I'm not surprised Farrell and Catt have succeeded elsewhere, tbh - they're good coaches
Farrell Sr. in an environment without Farrell Jr. was always going to see him coach a different way

I suppose I never thought of that factor where in England it different system regards access etc

 

[Umaga's Witness]

And again alot questioned Farrell for bringing in Mike Catt, for using Paulie as forwards coach, for some of his selections.

Facts are Andy Farrell is developing in to a pretty shrewd Head Coach and has delivered on following Schmidt.
Lets not fool ourselves it will always be a challenge now to stay at this level BUT Schmidt played a very structured style and it was hard watching at times but effective. This coaching team seems to have built on that and used them foundations but used a very fun attacking style.
Like would I be right in saying it was very late before we started box kicking when it was basically protect lead.

On English coaches from RWC 2015. Serious question does this say the players were issue too back then in English squad. Like Catt has had good start here and was ok in Italy, Rowntree has made great strides with our pack here in Munster, Lancaster has been Leinsters best signing in the post Schmidt era and Farrell has delivered well too.

a few hints regarding the england 2015 thing:
Sucess at a World Cup has a massive randomness factor
They were a very young team who performed equal to or above a reasonable persons expectations. Many pundits including myself predicted they would develop into a very good team.
The expectations on them were way too high, with people confusing hope with expectation because the World Cup was at home so there was a lot of hype induced hope.
English expectations are typically too high, see football for the most obvious example.
The coaches shouldn't have been fired.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

There's a lot to be said of a broken camp and inexperienced coaches though.

Had they been kept on, (and I think everything suggests they shouldn't have, the potential mistake by the RFU is letting Jones go stale) they'd have a squad whose best and most influential players didn't trust them. Coaches can be chopped in and out, world class players are a very finite and fickle resource.

Catt went and took a very different challenge with a talented coach/manager he hadn't worked with before.
Lancaster took two years out and definitely benefits from Leo Cullen's de facto DoR position now at Leinster. I hope he's around to take over when Farrell goes though, any international team would benefit from him at this stage of his career.
Farrell worked under arguably the best coach the NH has had in recent years for 3 seasons.

These guys have all definitely upskilled as a result of prudent moves by them. Their varying levels of success is a testament to that.

Even if Farrell has a huge result come the RWC it's not a loss for England. If anything they saw the potential, went for it and he just wasn't ready. Less of a **** up than Ireland getting rid of a young, ambitious and uncharacteristically positive coach in Gatland way back when.

And unforgettably, Farrell had a better record with England at this stage of his time with them and didn't have the problem that his most important player is a very, very sexy and GOATed 35 year old.