Irish billionaire backs Samoan rugby against New Zealand

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Irish billionaire Denis O'Brien has sided with Samoa's rugby establishment against New Zealand in a bid to balance things up in the South Pacific. O'Brien told The Telegraph newspaper in London he is trying to use his influence to make a difference after meeting Samoan prime minister Tuilaepa Sailele Malielegao, who complained that New Zealand was pinching the country's top rugby players by promising hefty salaries.

The 50-year-old mobile phone magnate said he had created a fund large enough to ensure the top 40 players will not have to leave the country.

"This is a bit of an experiment and I may do more of this in other parts of the world," he said.

"I hate bullies and New Zealand bullies the islands."[/b]

http://tvnz.co.nz/content/2470767

I wonder how this will shape up. Will O'Brien finance something akin to the Stanford series in cricket?

 

[An Tarbh]

interesting to see how this develops, suppose we won't see any concrete improvements until 2015 or 2019.

 

[O'Rothlain]

I think if I were super rich I'd try to f___ around with the balance of things too. Why not? It will be great for the Islanders. After seeing both the Union and the League World Cups, you can't deny that that Samoa, Tonga and Fiji have a great pool of Rugby Talent for being such small communities.

 

[Prestwick]

But guys! Didn't you get the memo?! Australia and New Zealand don't do that kind of thing!!! :lol:

 

[Fa'atau82]

Hmm. Not too sure about this. The islands do well by themselves regarding their talent.. but what they really need is more facilities and infrastructure. You will notice that since Manu Samoa turned pro, the team has suffered results wise and is largely made up of ethnic samoans who live and play in New Zealand and more so, Europe.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 11 2009, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

But guys! Didn't you get the memo?! Australia and New Zealand don't do that kind of thing!!! :lol:[/b]

Hopefully there will be a Russian billionaire who'll learn to hate the laughably hypocritical bullies from your country, Ireland, Wales and France. Except in our case this irish guy won't make much of a difference. Nearly all of our international players are NZ citizens and grew up here. You guys never name players do you?

I agree far more with Fa'atau82, thats what they need. The actual island teams need much better facilities all round.

More than anything, this will be bloody great. It'll prove how wrong you all are. Can't wait!

You won't be able to masquerade behind your online intellect when this one blows up in your face. Shame it's going to take about four years to prove what we in NZ already know.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Feb 10 2009, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Hmm. Not too sure about this. The islands do well by themselves regarding their talent.. but what they really need is more facilities and infrastructure. You will notice that since Manu Samoa turned pro, the team has suffered results wise and is largely made up of ethnic samoans who live and play in New Zealand and more so, Europe.[/b]

Sums up my thoughts almost perfectly. I'd love to see O'Brien stump up his money in improving facilities in Samoa (and the South Sea Islands in general). Hopefully he will and it will lead to a Super rugby franchise making it's way to one of the islands some day.

I do admire O'Brien for his stance. He's clearly passionate about rugby and wants to do what he can to "spread the gospel". However misplaced his ideas may be, if he pays for 30 or 40 players to remain in Samoa (rather than move to Japan, Europe, Oz, NZ etc), he's in essence giving the national team coach a fully professional home based squad. If that can be allied with more meaningful fixtures, the standard of the Samoa national team can only improve.

 

[An Tarbh]

I'd be surprised if he doesn't. He's no fool despite his political affiliations!. I doubt he can get players to stay if facilities aren't up to scratch, if he expects this to be a success than he'll have to invest in infrastructure as well.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snoopy snoopy dog dog @ Feb 11 2009, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Feb 10 2009, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm. Not too sure about this. The islands do well by themselves regarding their talent.. but what they really need is more facilities and infrastructure. You will notice that since Manu Samoa turned pro, the team has suffered results wise and is largely made up of ethnic samoans who live and play in New Zealand and more so, Europe.[/b]

Sums up my thoughts almost perfectly. I'd love to see O'Brien stump up his money in improving facilities in Samoa (and the South Sea Islands in general). Hopefully he will and it will lead to a Super rugby franchise making it's way to one of the islands some day.

I do admire O'Brien for his stance. He's clearly passionate about rugby and wants to do what he can to "spread the gopel". However misplaced his ideas may be, if he pays for 30 or 40 players to remain in Samoa (rather than move to Japan, Europe, Oz, NZ etc), he's in essence giving the national team coach a fully professional home based squad. If that can be allied with more meaningful fixtures, the standard of the Samoa national team can only improve.
[/b][/quote]

Another completely sensible post. It's long overdue that Samoa started having fixtures which of more significance than just whats been on the calendar for the last 3-4 years. Every year they should be able to play a team of the standard of say, Wales or Argentina. Someone that can push them, probably beat them, but not crush them.

 

[Fa'atau82]

Ok, let me tell you something about pacific islands rugby and in particular, Samoan rugby from my first hand experiences.

In the days before professionalism, the players would use natural resources to train and this would vary from anything from lifting coconuts to chasing pigs by the bus stop.

Seriously, try chasing a pig.. it will make a fool of you for a few minutes. Try lifting a stack of coconuts too, like a weightlifting bar, with the coconuts on each side like weights. These things were often just part of daily life, but made for good training.

There was simply nothing to use regarding equipment and none of the new technology we use today, and they relied on what they could muster to develop their skills. The players had nothing but their passion and desire to play for their nation because they were amateur and there on merit, and so to make the national team was a real highlight.

Now, samoans in particular generally eat a healthy diet that is mainly consisting of natural foods, such as coconut, fresh fish and shellfish, and mega protein-rich foods like taro and breadfruit. Couple that with the daily grind of coconut lifting and a spot of pig chasing at training and you end up with very large muscular players who can are built like battering rams, but have little else in terms of development of their rugby skill.

The samoans developed a game specially around what they do best, which is smash the living daylights out of every opponent possible, which is epitomised by players like Brian Lima. It's the way they played then that got them their successes in 1991 and 1995, and you will find that all their players were probably home-based, or maybe played in New Zealand at the very furthest distance.

Players like Jonah Lomu, (whose heritage is from Tonga) show that the era before professionalism was when players stood out much more. He had the skills and training from NZ, but still had the intestinal fortutude of a native rugby-loving Tongan. Now, there are a thousand players the same as Lomu with all their new fangled equipment and development, but none make anywhere near the impact of Lomu. I believe this is because Lomu at the time was not spoiled by money and played for the spirit of the game.

Now that the money is in the game the thousands of players have left Samoa to plying their trade abroad. There aren't many UK teams who don't have a samoan or pacific islander on their books, and the same can be said of France too and probably New Zealand and Japan.

Samoan rugby peaked in 2003 with the England RWC game, which was it's last hurrah and since then it has steadily declined.. not in terms of skills, talent and the players, but in the spirit of the team. They have lost the thing that was unique to them which is the fa'asamoa, or 'the samoan way'. They had to move on with the times or get left behind with the professional era, and they are getting left behind even with Sir Michael Fay (a kiwi) bankrolling them.

You will find that professionalism, and more so, capitalism in Samoa is probably the worst thing that ever happened to it on a domestic rugby level. It has bred a new tradition of playing abroad for a career with a vanishing affection for Manu Samoa because they become tied to the club abroad both by contract and obligation. They have become totally westernised with all of the negative benefits.

Although you will have players at every club at every level and at the highest level in 2009, they have become disjointed from the traditional ways of home, and you will find that at RWC 2007, Samoa had the highest rate of foreign-born players (kiwis) outside of the Italian National Team. Compare that to 1991, 1995, 1999 and 2003. This is why Manu Samoa flopped, and it was a massive flop by their standards.

When you compare the success rates of Tonga and Fiji in comparison at RWC 2007, you will find that most of the Fijians and Tongans are actually born in the islands, whereas the Samoans are essentially a ragtag assembly of qualified ethnic samoans who can't get capped as adopted kiwis.

So, therefore the worst thing that can happen now is for someone to bankroll the SRU in the sole name of fighting off NZ interest and to a lesser degree, Australia superhero style. That's not the reason to get involved.

As i have said before, and again in this post.. NZ does NOT poach islanders to play for the All Blacks. The players that DO make the All Blacks and the Wallabies are mainly just born in Samoa and left at an early age to live in NZ and Australia. This is a necessary evil because of the opportunity in Samoa is so poor. NZ have looked after them and so therefore the circle is complete.

The fact is that Collins, So'oialo, Kaino and Muliaina and the rest are as much kiwi as they are samoan, if not more kiwi than samoan.

The only way that Manu Samoa will actually improve and thrive in the pro era is to go back to basics. I don't mean train with pigs and coconuts and i don't mean decapitate Springboks.. but i mean to actually instill some fa'asamoa in them again and produce local players from Samoa, and playing in samoa.

Samoa has a population of 188,000 with 130 clubs with a total male player base of 17,822 (age-group to senior male), and consider that there is only one main centre, which is Apia and you may grasp the scale of talent in this place. Most of the pitches have concrete, trees or other obstructions on them and are un-developed un-regulation pitches in the middle of the woods where you avoid stray pigs.

Apia Park Sports Complex is about the best facility that Samoan sport has.. and to be fair it's quite good.. but there needs to be many more on both islands.

The best thing that the SRU can do is get some reason for players to play in Samoa, or locally in the Pacific region, and a S14 team would be a massive help to development in the region.

Things have started to get better, as you can see from the 7's team successes and the Pacific Rugby Cup which is picked from local-based only players generally but the actual money needs to go into the infrastructure to make more stadiums, more teams, more equipment, and all-round better facilities.

You mark my words, at the 7's RWC none of the local based players apart from Uale Mai and Lolo Lui will probably get a squad place. Instead, the pros turn up who don't play 7's unless it's a leap year.

Recently, Census Johnston used the fee from a sponsorship deal to fund a top-notch scrummaging machine for the SRU. This example needs to be followed and magnified if Manu Samoa are to make a real impact again on a RWC.

The most shameful and shocking issue though in Samoa is inter-school sports violence. ALL inter-school sports competitions were suspended indefinitely in 2007 after the issue came to ahead with a girl being set alight because she was from a school that has just won a sports match against a rival school.

In another case, a player was beaten by a mob of rival school players while waiting for a bus, and may never walk again after the attack.

In 'westernised' samoa, if you play a school sports match at any age-goup, it's common that bets are placed on the outcome and that the losing team will give the winners a good beating after the game because they lost, and more importantly lost the bet revenue.

The fact is in modern samoa, inter-school sports is rife with this attitude of humiliation if you lose and although it's hard to address why it happens in an otherwise peaceful and church-going population i am certain that is is solely down to the fact that money means more than the spirit of the game and that is a very, very tragic state of affairs for such a talented sport nation to be in.

So, in hindsight the money MUST be put into the game and make sure that the betting of rival teams is eliminated and restored with pride in winning, without a cash insentive. That might be tough to achieve for a few years, but let's hope this irish dude understands the points i am raising and makes a positive impact for rugby in samoa.

 

[shtove]

I hope Denis O'Brien goes bust. Total ******.

 

[shtove]

I hope Denis O'Brien goes bust. I won't call him a thief, but he is a total ******.

p.s. deserves saying again ... and again ... and again.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Feb 10 2009, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Hopefully there will be a Russian billionaire who'll learn to hate the laughably hypocritical bullies from your country, Ireland, Wales and France. Except in our case this irish guy won't make much of a difference. Nearly all of our international players are NZ citizens and grew up here. You guys never name players do you?[/b]

1. People chosing to play for the country of their chosing is for another debate and as I've pointed out in other threads, calling nations like England and the USA for having players born in foreign lands playing in their squads hyprocrites isn't really helpful.

2. We operate in an free market and an open labour market. We're not bullying anyone and as you may notice, the NH Clubs let their players go and play for their countries whoever they may have chosen. It isn't our fault if a Samoan chooses to travel to earn his wage. Hyprocrites? Definitely not.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 11 2009, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Feb 10 2009, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hopefully there will be a Russian billionaire who'll learn to hate the laughably hypocritical bullies from your country, Ireland, Wales and France. Except in our case this irish guy won't make much of a difference. Nearly all of our international players are NZ citizens and grew up here. You guys never name players do you?[/b]

2. We operate in an free market and an open labour market. We're not bullying anyone and as you may notice, the NH Clubs let their players go and play for their countries whoever they may have chosen. It isn't our fault if a Samoan chooses to travel to earn his wage. Hyprocrites? Definitely not.
[/b][/quote]

Oh, sorry Prestwick, your quite right, I'm sorry. I mistook your comment "But guys! Didn't you get the memo?! Australia and New Zealand don't do that kind of thing!!! :lol: " as sarcasm, meaning that Australia & New Zealand really are bullies to our near-by island teams. I'm glad your not saying that at all, I guess we'll never hear you mention New Zealand being a poacher of Pacific Island nations again then? Wonderful stuff.

As for what you said here:

1. People chosing to play for the country of their chosing is for another debate and as I've pointed out in other threads, calling nations like England and the USA for having players born in foreign lands playing in their squads hyprocrites isn't really helpful.

Thats great, because people (good players or not) like Henry Paul, Riki Flutey (both born AND RAISED in NZ) & Lesley Vainikolo (born in Tonga), aren't english as you probably realise and have represented "England's finest" rugger heroes in recent years. I guess in that light, one can't really say that New Zealand is a nation of bullies via their selection policies.

So, I'm glad we all agree that "calling nations like England and the USA for having players born in foreign lands playing in their squads hyprocrites isn't really helpful". So, I guess New Zealand are completely fine in what they are doing, especially in light of fact that 99% of our players grew up in our country, or were trained from an extremely young age in OUR OWN proving grounds as youngsters.

As for it being a free market and open labour market. Well, yes it is. Thats true. Still, all I've ever said is that our nation's deserves recompense via a transfer fee for the number of years spent in training a player for our competitions. It will eventually come to that, and on that day I'll say "buy up large now, clubs".

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Feb 11 2009, 01:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Oh, sorry Prestwick, your quite right, I'm sorry. I mistook your comment "But guys! Didn't you get the memo?! Australia and New Zealand don't do that kind of thing!!! :lol: " as sarcasm, meaning that Australia & New Zealand really are bullies to our near-by island teams. I'm glad your not saying that at all, I guess we'll never hear you mention New Zealand being a poacher of Pacific Island nations again then? Wonder ful stuff.[/b]

I usually leave the poatching jibes to Mite and the Welsh. Its not really my bag since I've subscribed to the belief that you can play for a country you truly believe in. Doesn't mean I can't joke about the inevitable flame war that'll erupt from a thread like this though

 

[Woldog]

This guy will probably just get mugged.

What Fiji needs is a stable government.

 

[TPenman]

So Mr O'Brien has jumped on one of European rugby's favourite bandwagons. Yet his comments which appear easily made merely reveal his own ignorance and arrogance. He obviously feels sufficiently confident to make inflamatory statements about the relationship between Samoa and NZ (obviously spurred on by the expedient and mischeavous Samoan PM) yet I guarantee that if he was challanged to provide any evidence in support of his statement he would struggle. With all claims of poaching whether they are made in connnection with English, Australian, Scottish, Welsh, Samoan or New Zeland rugby there is some truth but the bile thrown at NZ is markedly out of proportion to any crime that may have been committed. In fact out of the approximate 1100 All Blacks only 30 have been born in the Island going back to Walter Batty who was an All Black from 1928 to 31 and was born in Tonga. Of these 30 players on 4 did not go to school in NZ - John Schuster; Jo Vidiri; Saimone Taumoepeau; and Alema Iremia (came to NZ to go to University)
Of the remaining 26 4 that came to NZ on School Scholarships. They are: Casey Laulala scholarship to Wesley; Siti Sivivatu scholarship to Wesley; Sisone Anasi scholarship to St Pauls, Hamilton; and Chris Masoe scholarship to Wanganui College. Of the remaining 22 all started secondary school in NZ and the majority would have only vague memories, if any, of living in Samoa or Tonga. There are a handful of other guys who have represented NZ at Juniors and Sevens level who fall into the category of having arrived in NZ after school or on scholarships but oddly they tend to be Fijians in the Sevens rather than Samoans. So where does this leave us; will I think Mr O'Brien should stick to mobile phones and stay out of matters in which he clearly has no knoweldge.

Oh and whilst we are on the subject here is the Samoan rugby league side that played at the last Rugby League World Cup. No furtehr comment required.

As a matter of interest here is the Samoan side that played in the last Rugby League World Cup

George Carmont (Wigan), Born 30 June 1978 Auckland, NZ
Dave Faiumu (Huddersfield), Born 30 April 1983 Wellington, NZ
Harrison Hansen (Wigan), Born 26 October 1985 Auckland, NZ
Ali Lauitiiti (Leeds), Born 29 March 1978 Auckland, NZ
Tuaalagi Lepupa (unattached), Born NZ
Kylie Leuluai (Leeds), Born 29 March 1978 Auckland, NZ
Wayne McDade (Auckland Vulcans), Born Auckland, NZ
Francis Meli (St Helens),Born 20 Aug 1980 Apia, Samoa Grew up NZ
Joseph Paulo (Penrith), Born 2 January 1989 Auckland, NZ
Frank Puletua, Born 8 May 1978 Auckland, NZ
Tony Puletua (both Penrith), Born 25 June 1979 Auckland, NZ
Ben Roberts (Canterbury), Born 8 July 1985 Sydney, Aust
Tangi Ropati (East Tigers), Born Auckland, NZ
Lagi Setu (St George Illawarra), 25 February 1988 Auckland, NZ
Smith Samua (Gold Coast) Born 15 June 1986 Auckland, NZ
Terrence Seuseu (Cronulla), Born 20 November 1987 Auckland, NZ
David Solomona (Bradford), 26 January 1978 Auckland, NZ
Willie Talau (St Helens), Born 21 Jan 1976 Apia, Samoa Grew up in NZ
Misi Taulapapa (Cronulla), 25 January 1982 Auckland, NZ
Ben Te'o (Wests Tigers), 27 January 1987 Auckland, NZ
Tupu Ulufale (unattached), Born 10 May 1987 in Samoa
Matt Utai (Canterbury), Born 25 May 1981 Auckland NZ
Nigel Vagana (South Sydney). Born Feb 7 1975 Auckland NZ

 

[C A Iversen]

Absolute first class post and research. I'm giving two rep, because others who should rep you for that probably won't. The reason many from the "home nations" don't understand the island relationship with NZ, is that they simply don't want to, as it makes them look pretty ridiculous when they look at what their clubs are doing!

 

[SaintsFan_Schweinsteiger_Webby]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Feb 11 2009, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Absolute first class post and research. I'm giving two rep, because others who should rep you for that probably won't. The reason many from the "home nations" don't understand the island relationship with NZ, is that they simply don't want to, as it makes them look pretty ridiculous when they look at what their clubs are doing![/b]

I don't agree that New Zealand "bullies the islands". I think it's disappointing that many players don't wish to represent their country of birth (or where they were raised for those players born in random places but move before they could even walk). However, this is symptomatic of the modern game across the world, not just in the southern Pacific. I could never imagine pulling on the jersey of anyone other than England, because, terrible as we currently are, and as hated as we always will be, I'm proud to be English.

What I do object to is being told that most of us in these isles are too ignorant and stubborn to get our heads around such concepts. Club rugby is very, very different from the international game, and even from professional domestic rugby in the southern hemisphere. In England and France, clubs are just that - clubs. Not regions or franchises, but sides based around a local community. The reason many find club rugby in this part of the world more appealing than anything else is because they feel like they can connect with those they pay to go and watch. Clubs aren't just a vehicle for the national side - they welcome the paying customers, but they also put a huge amount back into grassroots rugby around their local area. Many people can no longer afford to go to Twickenham, so what is wrong with clubs using all that money they bring in to try and secure some of the world's finest players?

None force any player, especially those from outside Britain, to take up a professional contract. The deals offered can always be refused. What the clubs offer many players though is a better way of life for them and their families. Families are massively important in these decisions, as if any player does not want to uproot his family then he doesn't have to. Is this any different from New Zealand offering scholarships to promising island players, or allowing their family to take up residency in order to achieve a better way of life? I don't personally think the two are that far apart. Clubs, believe it or not, look after their players. They will find them and their family a home, help them find local schools - all and more that you might expect a company to do for their employees.

Look at the number of Tuilagis who have progressed through the Leicester system, or those Fijian men serving in the British Army who have found a better way of life through their rugby skills. Clubs do their best for their players, and supporters will always adopt those who they see giving their all for the club as one of their own.

Professional clubs are just that. They aren't big fluffy bunnies who will never make a questionnable decision, but neither are they and their supporters the cold and hypocritical ******** you seem so keen to make them/us out to be. Please do not accuse us of interferring on a subject we lack knowledge on, while simultaneously firing off equally ill-informed judgements in our direction. Your intelligence cn't be questionned, but to me your reasoning seems a little off.


On a sidenote, I also find it a little amusing that you have determined yourself worthy of deciding which posts we all should or shouldn't appreciate. I think the whole point of the forum - the opinions bit - will have died if you start bestowing reputation on behalf of other people. If you think the post is worthy of more than one point then that's fine, but do it in your own name rather than that of others.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SaintsFan_Schweinsteiger_Webby @ Feb 12 2009, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Feb 11 2009, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolute first class post and research. I'm giving two rep, because others who should rep you for that probably won't. The reason many from the "home nations" don't understand the island relationship with NZ, is that they simply don't want to, as it makes them look pretty ridiculous when they look at what their clubs are doing![/b]

I don't agree that New Zealand "bullies the islands". I think it's disappointing that many players don't wish to represent their country of birth (or where they were raised for those players born in random places but move before they could even walk). However, this is symptomatic of the modern game across the world, not just in the southern Pacific. I could never imagine pulling on the jersey of anyone other than England, because, terrible as we currently are, and as hated as we always will be, I'm proud to be English.

What I do object to is being told that most of us in these isles are too ignorant and stubborn to get our heads around such concepts. Club rugby is very, very different from the international game, and even from professional domestic rugby in the southern hemisphere. In England and France, clubs are just that - clubs. Not regions or franchises, but sides based around a local community. The reason many find club rugby in this part of the world more appealing than anything else is because they feel like they can connect with those they pay to go and watch. Clubs aren't just a vehicle for the national side - they welcome the paying customers, but they also put a huge amount back into grassroots rugby around their local area. Many people can no longer afford to go to Twickenham, so what is wrong with clubs using all that money they bring in to try and secure some of the world's finest players?

None force any player, especially those from outside Britain, to take up a professional contract. The deals offered can always be refused. What the clubs offer many players though is a better way of life for them and their families. Families are massively important in these decisions, as if any player does not want to uproot his family then he doesn't have to. Is this any different from New Zealand offering scholarships to promising island players, or allowing their family to take up residency in order to achieve a better way of life? I don't personally think the two are that far apart. Clubs, believe it or not, look after their players. They will find them and their family a home, help them find local schools - all and more that you might expect a company to do for their employees.

Look at the number of Tuilagis who have progressed through the Leicester system, or those Fijian men serving in the British Army who have found a better way of life through their rugby skills. Clubs do their best for their players, and supporters will always adopt those who they see giving their all for the club as one of their own.

Professional clubs are just that. They aren't big fluffy bunnies who will never make a questionnable decision, but neither are they and their supporters the cold and hypocritical ******** you seem so keen to make them/us out to be. Please do not accuse us of interferring on a subject we lack knowledge on, while simultaneously firing off equally ill-informed judgements in our direction. Your intelligence cn't be questionned, but to me your reasoning seems a little off.


On a sidenote, I also find it a little amusing that you have determined yourself worthy of deciding which posts we all should or shouldn't appreciate. I think the whole point of the forum - the opinions bit - will have died if you start bestowing reputation on behalf of other people. If you think the post is worthy of more than one point then that's fine, but do it in your own name rather than that of others.
[/b][/quote]

Find it amusing all you want, it was my opinion. Not an order. I didn't "determine myself worthy" of anything. No more than you "interpreted" my post in your own way. If that amuses you too, well you can be Mr Amused 2009 for all I care.

You've told me a 101 things that I already know about and your post of generalisms just rehashes a lot of common knowledge. I get professionalism, yadda, yadda, yadda, walla, walla, bing, bang.

My whole point is that this forum has been at times knee-deep in NZ stomach-kicking. When we're up, when we're down. Now facts are being mentioned in this thread, all of a sudden no one was ever guilty of sticking the boot in one too many times.

The growth of this forum in the southern hemisphere has been slowed for a long while now. Some old regulars don't bother much at all around here. Some aussies, but more NZ'ers. I was/still can be one of them. There (was/can occasionally still be) a lot of childish stuff said about my countries rugby over the world cup and for a long time since. Seeing as it's drifting to a NH forum anyhow maybe that's not important to the people who count.

"What I do object to is being told that most of us in these isles are too ignorant and stubborn to get our heads around such concepts." . Yeah. I reeeeaaaally said that too didn't I? You took my comment to it's logical extreme. Maybe I should've said some, because given the criticism of New Zealand's relationship with the islands, it's a fair call to say some definitely don't understand. Some blatently mock.

Really, as I've said before, unions who train a player from 6 years of age to 18 years of age (or train a player for more than half those years) deserve a transfer fee. New Zealand is having it's development "stolen" until that is fixed. Same goes for any country. I'd say the same if England had a great player that we somehow took for the Super 14 and he decided to live here.

"Professional clubs are just that. They aren't big fluffy bunnies who will never make a questionnable decision, but neither are they and their supporters the cold and hypocritical ******** you seem so keen to make them/us out to be". - So, sooooo hypocritical. You asking me not to say things that I never said. An english teacher would ask you not to generalise.

For your info, I think of England as the country I would most like to live in if I wasn't here in NZ. I'm of Danish ancestory and I still think of England as a place of great history and honour. I have an England rugby top of my own, (it's my second one, the other wore out!). I only own one All Blacks top, but I have a Lions one too. I follow more british bands than any other nation. British comedy and drama are the greatest of their genre in the world. If I could choose only three countries that would be left untouched after a huge war, it'd be NZ, England and Denmark. So yeah, colour me Anglophile why don't ya?

All I want is the NZ bashing which has been under the surface for a long time to STOP. If we can get some sympathy for the talent heading away from our shores, I'll defend english clubs. I know they are a business and aren't intentionally trying to hurt anyone. So, I'm not saying it's you webby, but if in general people can try and show some love to NZ rugby, they'll get it back big time. That's all I want.