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Irish billionaire backs Samoan rugby against New Zealand

  • Thread starter snoopy snoopy dog dog
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Wow some very impressive debating indeed from everybody! I feel like I have nothing to say and I am Samoan lol!!!!

The one MAIN problem that I see in the Samoan national team is their lack of team chemistry. I see this as their main problem more than their player ability. Too many players from all over the show with their various philosophies on how the game should be played and they are trying to gel in such a short time.

I agree that the Samoan team would probably do better if they had no "stars" from outside of the island. This is proven in their sevens team when a few years ago they dropped the non residents and spent time together as a squad with a clear game plan. As a bunch of no names they won a few tournaments as they were a gelled team.

Argentina have never cracked the big time because they do not have the infrastructure as the other big nations do. However we have seen recently that even with so many overseas players they have achieved better results with a bit more time together than they did before.

Imagine if the AB's were selected from all over the world and had one week to prepare for a test. What a chaotic ungelled team that would be. They would play like the Barbarians of last month...full of names but unable to beat a below strength yet gelled Wallaby outfit.

The players on the Island of Samoa have just as much RAW talent as the ones in NZ. They just need the structure and money to convince them not to look overseas....a good national competition...a good national coach with a clear direction that is supported by the Samoan clubs. Great communication with clubs wanting the game to grow rather than their own clubs (finances would therefore have to be centralised). Samoa and Fiji have achieved this objective in sevens rugby...it is unfortunate that when it comes to 15s rugby the lure of money makes players and potential sponsors look offshore.

BTW....the Samoans who play for the All Blacks were trained under...the NZ system. NZ made them into All Blacks. Quite simply the NZ system is way better than the Samoan one. If any Samoan wants to be a better rugby player they have to go train and play in NZ. Perhaps one day things may change...but at the moment this is the way it is. Therefore you cannnot poach something you created.
 
Well said, GG! Brilliant stuff. One thing that I never said earlier, (that I hope was obvious) is that I'd dearly love to see Samoa benefit from this and become a much stronger in world rugby to reflect the obvious talent base.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Feb 12 2009, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
"Professional clubs are just that. They aren't big fluffy bunnies who will never make a questionnable decision, but neither are they and their supporters the cold and hypocritical ******** you seem so keen to make them/us out to be". - So, sooooo hypocritical. You asking me not to say things that I never said. An english teacher would ask you not to generalise.[/b]

Who do you refer to when you say "Hopefully there will be a Russian billionaire who'll learn to hate the laughably hypocritical bullies from your country" in an earlier post then? Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but to me this seemed to be directed at the clubs. And I took 'hypocritical' as a direct quote, so an English teacher would be more liking to beat me round the head for not referencing properly. ;)

I don't believe you hate England by any means, just as I don't hate New Zealand. If I could swap yur mountains for our chavs then I would do in a heartbeat. I just think it's impossible for anyone to talk conclusively about an issue they are so physically distanced from. As you would agree in relation to all the talk of 'poaching' which constantly crops up.
 
It doesn't matter how much money is pumped into Samoa rugby, the fact is that the 7's is the only regular international competition they get and as GG says, you can see the results of a proper team that is home based.

They rarely have any meaningful senior test matches, so all you get is a local Manu Samoa A team playing in the PNC, which is good until you then realise that only a couple of them will be selected for any major tournament, which i think is unfair.

I would bet money that in the 7's RWC the Samoa core 7's team that is based locally for the IRB 7's will be dumped apart from Lolo Lui and Uale Mai and be made up of euro pros who have no right to have a place in the team.

Manu Samoa is not a proper team anymore, rather it is a team of world club exiles.. at least for major senior events. Money doesn't fix that overnight.

Until there is an S14 expansion or some kind of professional pacific club event.. like a 10-14 team Pacific Rugby Cup (with teams from USA, Japan, Argentina etc) there is nowhere for the raw talent in samoa to go, but to NZ or Australia. So, perhaps NZ do 'poach' in that context, or maybe the word is lure.. but that's life. It's more of an economic choice than a rugby one.

Every samoan kid wants to realise their dream.. and that is playing for the all blacks, because it is seen as the highest level they can achieve, and many will just bypass Manu Samoa in the hope of doing so. It's not so much about the money, but about the ambition.. but the money is more and more of an insentive these days as Samoa gets more capitalist.

The relationship between many of the Pacific Islands and New Zealand is a complex one, that this guy clearly doesn't understand and throwing money at it willy-nilly in a superhero fashion will make it a whole lot worse IMHO.
 
"Who do you refer to when you say "Hopefully there will be a Russian billionaire who'll learn to hate the laughably hypocritical bullies from your country" in an earlier post then? Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but to me this seemed to be directed at the clubs. And I took 'hypocritical' as a direct quote, so an English teacher would be more liking to beat me round the head for not referencing properly. wink.gif ".

I can explain this easily (and I can understand how one or two might've not taken my meaning). I was basically referring to the irishman, O'Brien himself. Coming over to this part of the world with his billions and saying that we are the bullies. "From your country", should really have referred to "rich people from the northern hemisphere".

In any case I wasn't referring to the general public. Clubs I do think should have to pay a player development transfer fee, when a player is first bought from a country, thats the extent of it.
 
Why is this issue important to me? Well it has something to do with the NZ in which I hope my kids will grow up in. There are many successesful peoples from immigrant populations in NZ. In fact we are all immigrants really and shaping asense of uinity and oneness where all peples are accepted and feel wanted members of that society is very important to NZ helathy future. Giving society a unified/shared goal is of major importance where 23% of our population were born outside our shores! We only have to go to a few UK towns to see what happens when immigrant populations do not have shared goals etc to see what problems this cuases. Sorry this is a bit rambling.

Samoans and Tongas have given much to NZ and most seem to enjoy being both New Zealanders and people fo Samoan and Tongan heritage (or Nuiean, Cook Island, Fijian etc). I do not think it is unreasonable to suggest that Tthe majority of ongans, Samoans, Cook Islanders etc living in NZ see themselves as both New Zealanders and Tongans/Samoans/Cook Islander. Certainly this is my experience. I have cousins who are of Samoan/European extraction and they see themselves as proud New Zealanders and as proud Samoans. And certainly many of the close friends I have had who are of Samoan and Tongan lineage see themselves this way. So attempts by the likes of O'Brin to divide our society and to damage the relatioship between NZ and the Island annoys the hell out of me.

Those people that immigrate to New Zealand tend to adopt the positive attributes of NZ society whilst of course maintaining a pride in their family ties. This is vital in terms of building new societies. When I passed through Auckland airport last June it was full of Tongans and Samoans heading back to the Islands to visit relatives or who were heading home after visiting relatives in NZ. The amount of All Black memorabilia seemed to confirm me views that both being Samoan and being NZ live happily aside each other. There seems to be little conflict. Michael Jones has spoken often about this; about his Samoan heritage , about his Welsh heritage and about his pride in being a New Zealander. We are a country of immigrants and to shape a cohesive society you need to steer away from a “them and us†view. New Zeland has been relatively successful here. I think Michael Jones sets this duality out when he says:

“As a Pacific Island male, I think there is a void of leadership. I’m very passionate about leadership and my generation needs to pick up the baton. A lot of the true champions for the advancement of Pacifica are women. I’m very mindful of that as a Pacifica man, and as a role model. I take leadership very seriously and want to mobilize more men to be positive influences, to be change agents in their families and communities, in terms of our contribution to our nation. As Polynesians we will be at least one third of the NZ population in 50 years time, and the youth component of that will be nearly 50%. We need to raise a generation of leaders who will be the decision makers for the needs of the broader NZ multicultural family but also be able to lead on behalf of their own community, and in every aspect of society â€" as a consumer, and in education.â€

It has also often been suggested that NZ has provided passports to rugby players from the Islands. This is a poisonous lie. Apart from the fact that Internal Affairs (the Home Office) is a Govt body that is highly scrutinised and which adheres strictly to NZ immigration policy there is no evidence in NZ rugby that any such event has ever occured (I would point out the NZ public service comes under greater scrutiny than does its sister structures in the UK and that NZ frequently sits in the top three countries in the world in terms of the honesty of its public service and politicians).


I could go on and on but... I am not blind to the failings of the NZRFU but frankly this old chestnut goes wider than rugby
 
For those of you who are interested here is what I believe to be a full list of All Blacks who were born in the Pacific Islands
American Samoa

1. Jerome Kaino Came to NZ when he was 6 year’s old & attended St Kents Auckland
2. Frank Solomon AB 1931/32 Brother of Dave wbelow who ws born in Fiji. Both Frank and Dave grew up in NZ, Frank went to Seddon Memorial College in Auck and Dave went to MT Albert Grammar

Fiji

3. Bernie Fraser 1979/84 Grew up in NZ and went to St Pauls School in Ack
4. Arthur Jennings 1967 Came to NZ as a child and went to Northcote High School Ack
5. Tabai Matson 1995/96 Grew up in NZ having arrived before he was 5 and went to Christ College, Christchurch
6. Joe Rokocoko Came to NZ as a 5 year old and went to St Kents Auckland
7. Siti Sivivatu Came to NZ when 15 and went to Wesley College Auckland
8. David Solomon 1935/36
9. Joeli Vidiri 1998 Came to NZ as adult
10. Ron Williams 1988/89 Grew up in NZ and went to Westlake Boys. He was of European Fijian descent and later in his career played for Fiji. He played no Test matches

Samoa

11. Sosene Anesi 2005 Came to NZ on Scholarship to St Pauls, Hamilton
12. Olo Brown 1990/98 Came to NZ as child - went to Mt Albert Grammar from 1981-85
13. Eroni Clarke 1992/98 Came to NZ at an early age & went to Henderson H School in Ack
14. Jerry Collins 2000/07 Came to NZ as a 4 year old - attended St Pat’s Collage Wton
15. Alama Ieremia 1994/2000 Came to NZ to go to Victoria University, Wton
16. Casey Laulala 2004/06 Came to NZ on scholarship to Wesley
17. Chris Masoe 2005/07 Came to NZ on scholarship to Wanganui College
18. Mils Miliaina 2003 â€" Came to Invercargill as 2 year old Attended Kelston Boys.
19. Jonny Schuster 1987/89 Came to NZ after secondary school as a teenager and entered senior club rugby with Marist in Auckland in 1983. He played for NZ Colts
20. John Schwalger 2007 â€" Grew up in Porirua, Wellington (as did Jerry Collins, Rodney So’oialo) - attended Bishop Viard College were he was head boy. Came to NZ when he was a child
21. Rodney So’oialo 2002 - Came to NZ as a 5 year old - attended Mana College Wton
22. Isaia Toeava â€" Came to NZ as a 7 year old - attended De La Salle College, Ack
23. Vaiaiga Tuigamala Came to NZ when he was 4 years old attended Kelston Boys, Ack

Tonga

24. Pita Alatini 1999/01 son of a member of the Tongan team in New Zealand in 1969, came to New Zealand as a child & attended Kings College Dunedin
25. Walter Batty 1928/31
26. Sione Lauaki 2005/07 Came to NZ aged 7 & attended Kelston Boys, Ack
27. Isitolo Maka 1998 raised in Auckland & attended Sacred Heart College
28. Charles Riechelman 1997 Part Tongan & born there but grew up in NZ and went to Auckland Grammar
29. Saimone Taumoepeau 2004 Came to NZ after leaving school
30. Osaiasi Vanisi 1990 Came to NZ as a child and grew up in Dunedin where he attended Kings High School
 
Interesting thread. Getting a better appreciation of NZ as a force for good.

The only thing I can add is watch out for O'Brien - don't know where to start with this guy. He has a wikipedia article, but it's heavily vetted.

Put it this way, he's been mixed up in Ireland's version of tangentopoli for fifteen years.

And I doubt he's a "billionaire" any more, with the collapse of loony finance over the past eighteen months. Whose money is he actually proposing to put up?
 
Yes indeed. What motivates O'Brien here? Perhaps he is seeking grace and favour from the Samoan PM; who I think I will not have the world's wrath poured upon me be saying that he is not particularly impressive individual. As for O'Brien's wealth; yes given the nature of the global economy and the suspect position Ireland finds itself in I suspect his portfolio of assets is looking a little less healthy. Billionaire is an oft used word but often there is little cash lieing behind it. Mr Chelsea FC Oli is from many a rumour I have heard not so solvent these days and may in fact be sitting on the worng side of the ledger.
 
This is a piece written by Jonathan Falefasa "Tana" Umaga, Order of New Zealand, a year or so back in the Otago Daily Times which I think says it all.

"My parents emigrated from Samoa; I was born in New Zealand. There are some All Blacks who were born in the islands but came to New Zealand as children. Their parents brought them here for education, to give them the opportunity of having a better life than they had.

My parents met in New Zealand. My mother worked up and down the country, picking fruit and doing odd jobs before becoming a nurse and my father worked in a factory to earn money to send back to his family in Samoa. They knew that education was a key for their children and wanted to send me to the best school, but couldn’t afford it. My parents made sacrifices for their children; I may be a public success story, but a lot of that is due to them. All their children have benefited from the sacrifice they made by leaving their homes and families in Samoa to make a better life for their children in New Zealand.

Our parents sacrificed to give us opportunities and for some of us those opportunities were in rugby. A few became All Blacks: we had the opportunity to play for the best team in the world and earn a living doing it, and we took it. Wherever in the Pacific Islands you come from, when you’ve lived in New Zealand for any length of time the All Blacks are your first choice. I don’t take these things lightly; I did it because I loved it and I knew that it would make my parents proud. Whether you’re Pacific Islander, Maori or Pakeha, you want to make your people proud of you, especially those who looked after you and sacrificed for you when you were young. That’s why I get angry when they go on about poaching."

Kia kaha
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeePee @ Feb 13 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Yes indeed. What motivates O'Brien here? Perhaps he is seeking grace and favour from the Samoan PM; who I think I will not have the world's wrath poured upon me be saying that he is not particularly impressive individual. As for O'Brien's wealth; yes given the nature of the global economy and the suspect position Ireland finds itself in I suspect his portfolio of assets is looking a little less healthy. Billionaire is an oft used word but often there is little cash lieing behind it. Mr Chelsea FC Oli is from many a rumour I have heard not so solvent these days and may in fact be sitting on the worng side of the ledger.[/b]
I can understand him having a love of rugby, because he comes from that background in Ireland.

But why would O'Brien seek favour from the PM? Is Samoa helpful for I scratch your back/you don't tax me or extradite me situations? How many US/Aus crooks do you have living there under government licence?

O'Brien's digital wealth must be very distant from Ireland, since he's spent years running from tax domicile there. But he probably piled everything in to the unholy financial products that the bankrupt banks were touting: miracle workers have a universal belief in miracles.

Or he may have piled up gold, and the Samoan PM wants a few bars of that. But gold is no miracle either - it will go down with the rest!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeePee @ Feb 13 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
This is a piece written by Jonathan Falefasa "Tana" Umaga, Order of New Zealand, a year or so back in the Otago Daily Times which I think says it all.

"My parents emigrated from Samoa; I was born in New Zealand. There are some All Blacks who were born in the islands but came to New Zealand as children. Their parents brought them here for education, to give them the opportunity of having a better life than they had.

My parents met in New Zealand. My mother worked up and down the country, picking fruit and doing odd jobs before becoming a nurse and my father worked in a factory to earn money to send back to his family in Samoa. They knew that education was a key for their children and wanted to send me to the best school, but couldn't afford it. My parents made sacrifices for their children; I may be a public success story, but a lot of that is due to them. All their children have benefited from the sacrifice they made by leaving their homes and families in Samoa to make a better life for their children in New Zealand.

Our parents sacrificed to give us opportunities and for some of us those opportunities were in rugby. A few became All Blacks: we had the opportunity to play for the best team in the world and earn a living doing it, and we took it. Wherever in the Pacific Islands you come from, when you've lived in New Zealand for any length of time the All Blacks are your first choice. I don't take these things lightly; I did it because I loved it and I knew that it would make my parents proud. Whether you're Pacific Islander, Maori or Pakeha, you want to make your people proud of you, especially those who looked after you and sacrificed for you when you were young. That's why I get angry when they go on about poaching."

Kia kaha[/b]
Wow! I also fully agree with all this. Playing for the All Blacks brings greater respect from other Samoans than playing for Manu Samoa. This is simply because the All Blacks are THE team to want to play for and any Samoan parent would be so proud if their son played for this team. It is not so much an issue of nationalism...or even money....but more an issue of pride.

I think any Samoan is more than appreciative that there is a door open for them to play for New Zealand if they decide to pursue that choice.

Another thing that should be noted is that Samoans were pushing to get into the All Blacks before the advent of professionalism. The honour of playing for the black jersey was just as strong before money became a factor.

They say that every Kiwi boy dreams of being an All Black...well did you also know that little boys in Fiji/Tonga/Samoa/Cook Islands/Nuie/etc are lying on their mats looking at the moon above hovering over the pacific dreaming that one day they might play for the....All Blacks. Yep...thats what they are dreaming about...thats who their heroes are.

Once some relatives of my ex wife came over from Samoa to visit NZ for the first time (they were all elderly)....I was driving them to another house in the van when I thought I would drive past Eden Park. I never told them what I was driving past. In Samoan they asked my ex wife what it was we were driving past...she said "Eden Park". I tell you they looked at Eden Park in a way that freaked me out...it was like they were starring at the house of God himself! For them just starring at the outside of Eden Park was like touching the cloak of the almighty!

Let me put it this way...if Islanders had to PAY MONEY to be able to play for the All Blacks they would happily pay. If a player was selected to play for the AB's and being Samoan the NZRFU said he had to pay a $50,000 fee for not being a NZ born....the money would be raised in 48 hours without fail!!!!! Samoans would happily dish out money to get into the All Blacks...there is no poaching required!
 
Yep, I'd believe that. The spirit between samoans, new zealanders and samoan-new zealanders with regards to sport and the talent shared isn't particularly negative that it needs fixing. Samoa does need some more domestic infastructure and financial support in developing their national team, but there's no bullying issue that I can see.

Samoa loves it when the All Blacks do well and New Zealand love a samoan win too.
 
Samoans are fanatical about the AB's....I have seen grown Samoan men cry after another RWC exit for NZ. I have seen Samoan men cursing and all sorts of antics the morning following a RWC exit from the AB's.

As a Samoan I can tell you that we have TWO national teams. If Chiro came back on he would say the same thing. We see both teams as big brother and little brother. When some country is giving little brother (Manu Samoa) a beat down we say to ourselves (Just you wait till you play the All Blacks...yep then it will be your turn to cry eh).
 
LOL

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
When some country is giving little brother (Manu Samoa) a beat down we say to ourselves (Just you wait till you play the All Blacks...yep then it will be your turn to cry eh).[/b]

I'm gonna tell my dad on you, and he's gonna dance the haka on your ass!
 
Don't know whether any of you guys have picked up on the Samoan Rugby Union's responde to O'Brien. I quote

"The Samoa Rugby Union does not accept the description by Mr O'Brien of its relationship with the NZ Rugby Union as one where it is being bullied," chief executive Peter Schuster said.

O'Brien told Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper that he had set up a fund large enough to ensure Samoa's top 40 players did not have to move elsewhere.

"I hate bullies and New Zealand bullies the islands," O'Brien said after a meeting with the Samoan prime minister, who claimed New Zealand was "pinching" his country's best players by promising hefty salaries.

But Schuster said Samoa has benefited from its players based in New Zealand as well as from technical assistance provided by the New Zealand Union.

The Pacific Island nation is looking to New Zealand and Australia for a technical advisor, and recently recruited a new trainer from the New Zealand Super 14 franchise the Chiefs.

"Samoan rugby cherishes its long-standing relationship with New Zealand," Schuster said.

"Many of our families have benefited through New Zealand's education and sporting system. It's a place where we have not just sporting ties, it's a place of strong cultural and family identity.""
 
I don't think this will go far. That Irishman should put his money in Connacht and Irish rugby, Lord knows they need it after the last World Cup. Samoa and the Islands need a team in the Super series, the sooner the better.
 

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