jaguares 2018

[petite]

this is the list of players that wont be playing for jaguares
Manuel Montero, Nicolás Freitas, Cristian Bartoloni, Ignacio Larrague, Gabriel Ascarate, Juan Cruz Guillemain y Roberto Tejerizo. Facundo Isa y Facundo Bosch, Lucas Noguera Paz (Bath), Ramiro Herrera (Stade Francais) y Facundo Gigena (Leicester Tigers). Cordero (Leicester Tigers) and Báez,
the official team below

 

[AM_Bokke]

this is the list of players that wont be playing for jaguares
Manuel Montero, Nicolás Freitas, Cristian Bartoloni, Ignacio Larrague, Gabriel Ascarate, Juan Cruz Guillemain y Roberto Tejerizo. Facundo Isa y Facundo Bosch, Lucas Noguera Paz (Bath), Ramiro Herrera (Stade Francais) y Facundo Gigena (Leicester Tigers). Cordero (Leicester Tigers) and Báez,
the official team below

How do you feel about that? Where do you think the Jags should fit into Argentinian rugby?

 

[FNS]

Some of that list we already knew they wont be. Half of them i dont know who they are. Cordero is a surprise but meh.

Plus the ones that never went to Jags. Right now we have half a pumas team here and another at Europe. Im guessing 4/5 wins these season.

 

[curtbob7]

Time to lift that ban on players playing for Argentina who are based in Europe?

 

[petite]

they should but after the wc imo. it would be cheating on the boys who trusted and stayd to play for the jags. allowing the players from europe will be a football like desition. the comon sense of the mediocre argentinian: **** the rule and let down everybody who played by it. i hope we (rugby) can set a better example

 

[FNS]

they should but after the wc imo. it would be cheating on the boys who trusted and stayd to play for the jags. allowing the players from europe will be a football like desition. the comon sense of the mediocre argentinian: **** the rule and let down everybody who played by it. i hope we (rugby) can set a better example

They let us down first. Jags is joke and Pumas too. It was an experiment that we already saw it did not pay out. Why give away the WC?

 

[petite]

They let us down first. Jags is joke and Pumas too. It was an experiment that we already saw it did not pay out. Why give away the WC?

i know they are a joke but still they should keep their word.

 

[Brigantine]

So at the RWC... Would it even make a difference?

Either way you'll probably lose to England, beat France (France can't even beat Japan any more), come 2nd in Pool C, and play Australia in the QF.

Australia are improving and beat the All Blacks in their last game. What do you think your chances against Australia are:
- A) with a full Pumas squad including Europe-based players
- B) with a Jags-only squad?

It would be unfortunate if you throw the Jags under the bus, and then lose to Australia anyway.

Then if you *do* get past Australia, the SF would probably be against South Africa or Ireland, so Pumas in the Final is maybe not unthinkable.
(then probably the Final vs NZ or the Bronze Final vs England again)

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I am with petite. Either you screw it once, or you send the wrong signal for eternity. You lose credibility and that takes a very long time to recover.

It is simply mental to allow euro based players to play for pumas at this point for 2019's wc. The consequences for Argentine rugby would be huge imo.
I put myself in the position of a jaguares/pumas player who'd lose the spot at the 2019 and i'd be livid.
This is the (hypothetical) scenario i have in mind:

Players A and B, competing for the same position for pumas. Player A stays in Jaguares and player B goes to France/England.
For the sake of the argument let's say that we are in end 2015 and that both players are equally talented.
B is surrounded by better players (say Saracens/Racing, etc), earns more money and travels (WAY) less than A.
A decided to stay out of pride, sacrificing all of the above with the dream of playing for the Pumas in 2019.

Due to the above, lets say B becomes a little bit better than A, but not by much.
End of 2018 UAR changes the rules in the middle of the game and allows euro based players to play for Pumas. A loses his spot to B, and ends up not being selected for Pumas RWC squad.

After a while (months, years, doesn't matter) A goes back to his pre jaguares club, and after coaching a bit here and there, he gets asked by an up and coming talent, "what should i do"? (this happens, trust me).
What do you think he'll say? He will tell him **** Jaguares and UAR, do what's best for you and you alone, if you are good, they'll change the rules to include you, if you do not, it doesn't really matter then.

The rule was not particularly smart to begin with, granted, but like in every aspect of life, not being true to your word (i.e. changing the rules in the middle of the game) has consequences that go far and beyond what you can generally estimate. People are not stupid and do not remember fondly those who screwed them while they were making, in many cases, huge sacrifices.

This sort last minute (year) changes basically is a "thanks for your effort but **** you" to everyone who committed to the project you sold them AND rewarding everyone who said "no thanks, i'd rather play for more money".

But say you want to change that rule again: then the least unfair thing right now would be to tell ALL players, local and playing abroad, after 2019s wc, everyone can play for Pumas. That would give everyone the chance to readjust (renegotiate or move abroad/back to Arg) and minimize the impact long term.
My guess is Jaguares would collapse tho.

About cordero, i know i've criticized him a LOT, but i sincerely think he will do great win Leicester. Leicester's back line, particularly in the centers, will give him the space he needs to exploit his speed change of pace. A truly professional environment will help him too.

 

[petite]

I am with petite. Either you screw it once, or you send the wrong signal for eternity. You lose credibility and that takes a very long time to recover.

It is simply mental to allow euro based players to play for pumas at this point for 2019's wc. The consequences for Argentine rugby would be huge imo.
I put myself in the position of a jaguares/pumas player who'd lose the spot at the 2019 and i'd be livid.
This is the (hypothetical) scenario i have in mind:

Players A and B, competing for the same position for pumas. Player A stays in Jaguares and player B goes to France/England.
For the sake of the argument let's say that we are in end 2015 and that both players are equally talented.
B is surrounded by better players (say Saracens/Racing, etc), earns more money and travels (WAY) less than A.
A decided to stay out of pride, sacrificing all of the above with the dream of playing for the Pumas in 2019.

Due to the above, lets say B becomes a little bit better than A, but not by much.
End of 2018 UAR changes the rules in the middle of the game and allows euro based players to play for Pumas. A loses his spot to B, and ends up not being selected for Pumas RWC squad.

After a while (months, years, doesn't matter) A goes back to his pre jaguares club, and after coaching a bit here and there, he gets asked by an up and coming talent, "what should i do"? (this happens, trust me).
What do you think he'll say? He will tell him **** Jaguares and UAR, do what's best for you and you alone, if you are good, they'll change the rules to include you, if you do not, it doesn't really matter then.

The rule was not particularly smart to begin with, granted, but like in every aspect of life, not being true to your word (i.e. changing the rules in the middle of the game) has consequences that go far and beyond what you can generally estimate. People are not stupid and do not remember fondly those who screwed them while they were making, in many cases, huge sacrifices.

This sort last minute (year) changes basically is a "thanks for your effort but **** you" to everyone who committed to the project you sold them AND rewarding everyone who said "no thanks, i'd rather play for more money".

But say you want to change that rule again: then the least unfair thing right now would be to tell ALL players, local and playing abroad, after 2019s wc, everyone can play for Pumas. That would give everyone the chance to readjust (renegotiate or move abroad/back to Arg) and minimize the impact long term.
My guess is Jaguares would collapse tho.

About cordero, i know i've criticized him a LOT, but i sincerely think he will do great win Leicester. Leicester's back line, particularly in the centers, will give him the space he needs to exploit his speed change of pace. A truly professional environment will help him too.

this is exacty what i ment.
also i dont think that bringing in the euro players would make suuuch an impact. like you are not missing a championship here.
i mean you are going to screw your own people up, by not keeping your word plus, you`re not gonna win the damm thing. with or with out the players our real chances would be more o less de same. figalo and imhoff would be a great addition, but it would not make much of a diference in terms of the wc outcome.

 

[petite]

So at the RWC... Would it even make a difference?

Either way you'll probably lose to England, beat France (France can't even beat Japan any more), come 2nd in Pool C, and play Australia in the QF.

Australia are improving and beat the All Blacks in their last game. What do you think your chances against Australia are:
- A) with a full Pumas squad including Europe-based players
- B) with a Jags-only squad?

It would be unfortunate if you throw the Jags under the bus, and then lose to Australia anyway.

Then if you *do* get past Australia, the SF would probably be against South Africa or Ireland, so Pumas in the Final is maybe not unthinkable.
(then probably the Final vs NZ or the Bronze Final vs England again)

jja sorry i missed this post. completely agreed this is what i was trying to say (i wont count on that win against france) we could probably come home early in the next wc

 

[Horacito]

Hey people, ready to suffer for another year I see

Well, some things:
-four of those new argentina XV guys are props and hookers, so the problems seem to have been finally identified by the staff.
-Nicolás Fernández Miranda is a really good coach.
-Cordero out, huge player for us together with Moyano, but ok, because finally DELGUY is IN. Super excited about it.
-let us have a proper scrum this year, please, lord.
-I see your bet and rise it up to 5 victories this year.

About the european affair: I for one am totally ok with bring in european based players... with a quota system. Which means that we would let some of thebest ones to come back, like Isa, Cordero, Imhoff, Figallo, Fernández and such. I do believe in what your saying, but at this point and after two years of continous downfall, I'm sorry, it's over ladies. It was a stupid idea, and it has been proven. We can get our best players and go to japan and try it with some actual chance or we can go there and die and worse: miss 4 years of our project because "we gave our word and we should die with it".

Time to correct things: Pichot said in march it would be the time to see. I hope it happens.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I guess the difference is that I (and petite, but please correct me if i am wrong) am not thinking of just 2019. I am thinking long term and with that horizon in mind, telling everyone "hey, i lied to you and the sacrifice you made over the last 3 years was useless" is a bad idea.

UAR decision clearly backfired but i believe it'd be even worse if they decide to bring euro based players.
I'd like to believe UAR's worth should be worth something.

Professional rugby players have a relatively short career window. By lying to them you are screwing not only their present but their future too.
Not sure if Matera want's to play abroad, but say he would consider it, for argument's sake. He would have made at least, twice what he is making, and i am being quite generous here.
So basically, by changing the rules, UAR took 4 years worth of salary (at least) of him. Say the average career of a pro rugby player is 12 years (?), they took away a third of his career in earnings.

Imagine your boss lying to you costs you a third of your life earnings. Just imagine that for a second. This is not a detail in the fine print, it is a game changer. It will affect Jaguares's talent pool directly and very fast.

Making bad decisions has consequences.

 

[Horacito]

Sure yeah, I'm also thinking beyond 2019.

There's another truth: if you're a professional player, failure has a consequence, you cannot afford to be defeated so many times. Maybe do what they do in professional leagues and fire them, or some of them. There's no reason to represent our country if they're not the best. Not just for a given word.

Conditions change, we are in time to get a quarter final WC and avoid disaster, if we don't make it out of pool stage, we're going back 10 years and that's a fact. We need someof our best players, and we need to look like we're tryng it.

 

[die_mole]

I guess the difference is that I (and petite, but please correct me if i am wrong) am not thinking of just 2019. I am thinking long term and with that horizon in mind, telling everyone "hey, i lied to you and the sacrifice you made over the last 3 years was useless" is a bad idea.

UAR decision clearly backfired but i believe it'd be even worse if they decide to bring euro based players.
I'd like to believe UAR's worth should be worth something.

Professional rugby players have a relatively short career window. By lying to them you are screwing not only their present but their future too.
Not sure if Matera want's to play abroad, but say he would consider it, for argument's sake. He would have made at least, twice what he is making, and i am being quite generous here.
So basically, by changing the rules, UAR took 4 years worth of salary (at least) of him. Say the average career of a pro rugby player is 12 years (?), they took away a third of his career in earnings.

Imagine your boss lying to you costs you a third of your life earnings. Just imagine that for a second. This is not a detail in the fine print, it is a game changer. It will affect Jaguares's talent pool directly and very fast.

Making bad decisions has consequences.

part of me thinks that if they just tell the players if they want to leave the jaguares and go get money in europe for the next season and a half the players would be okay with it

the other part thinks they'd tell the UAR to **** off since they already ate up 2.5 years of wages, lost a bunch of games, many gave up playing time to be on the jaguares, and fly about 15x as many miles as they would have if they were playing in europe

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

There's no reason to represent our country if they're not the best.

I guess here is where we disagree (nothing wrong with that).
UAR told, not just the players, but the entire world, that you could represent the country if you were not the best (say, you were the second best and the best was playing abroad).

And you know how this things go. They didn't tell the players "listen, if you stay, there is a change i will screw you up in 3 years time". They told them "stay, and you will play for pumas, precisely because the other guys are abroad". That is flat out lying.

Conditions change, we are in time to get a quarter final WC and avoid disaster, if we don't make it out of pool stage, we're going back 10 years and that's a fact.

I am not sure about that for a couple of reasons:

1) Last world cup, imo, we got incredibly lucky.
- We got a group where we were pretty much guaranteed cruising till QF
- We got our toughest game first, so we had the choice to rest players and avoid YC/RC, etc.
- We had to face Ireland in QF when they had 5 key players injured/suspended (sexton, o connel, O Mahony, O Brien and Payne).
- to be 100% fair, and i'm argentine so i guess it'be silly to call em biased towards ireland, we also got very lucky when Herrera didn't get a second yellow. That could have very well changed the outcome (we were 23-20 at that time, still 30 min to go).

2) I don't think the expectations are high for this world cup. We've lost pretty much every single "difficult" game we've played, pumas and jaguares.
Both our TRC and mid and end year internationals (2016 and 2017) have been terrible. We lost to England's B side at home, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and just managed to run away with victories vs Italy, Japan and Georgia. Jaguares have been clueless at best, too. Not qualifying wouldn't mean going back 10 years, it'd just be a reflection of our current form.
It saddens me to admit it, but it is true.

I only see two potential upsides. First, i don't see the Pumas doing any worse, i just don't see how. Second, and this is not minor, the draft we got for the WC is not a bad one: if we manage to beat France (possible) we could end up in a situation where we face Wales/Aus in QF (again, we could win that with a bit of luck) and Ireland in SF (same). We also tend to punch above our weight in WCs, so who knows. It'd be incredibly ironic for us to reach the final.

Cheers all.

 

[petite]

Sure yeah, I'm also thinking beyond 2019.

There's another truth: if you're a professional player, failure has a consequence, you cannot afford to be defeated so many times. Maybe do what they do in professional leagues and fire them, or some of them. There's no reason to represent our country if they're not the best. Not just for a given word.

Conditions change, we are in time to get a quarter final WC and avoid disaster, if we don't make it out of pool stage, we're going back 10 years and that's a fact. We need someof our best players, and we need to look like we're tryng it.

well no one mentioned they have to win. it has nothing to do with the results. its about keeping your word as people in charge. i think rugby is about ethics mostly, where you learn to play for the team and you are asked to commit to it, is about resistance in the adversity , not about bending the rules every time you are in trouble.
if you break the commitment (Players to the team) you are destroig the game´s core. if i was a jag player that gave away money and time to fullfill my dream of playng for pumas, ill be ******.
i can perfectly understand why the rule was imposed. *** will not be posible to have a sr franchise without the rule.
even with the rule we lost many players.
its a very tougth desition you either loose jags or have a lousy pumas.
i m o in the long term the rule would bring some results.
you cant make long term plans in argentina.

 

[FNS]

well no one mentioned they have to win. it has nothing to do with the results. its about keeping your word as people in charge. i think rugby is about ethics mostly, where you learn to play for the team and you are asked to commit to it, is about resistance in the adversity , not about bending the rules every time you are in trouble.
if you break the commitment (Players to the team) you are destroig the game´s core. if i was a jag player that gave away money and time to fullfill my dream of playng for pumas, ill be ******.
i can perfectly understand why the rule was imposed. *** will not be posible to have a sr franchise without the rule.
even with the rule we lost many players.
its a very tougth desition you either loose jags or have a lousy pumas.
i m o in the long term the rule would bring some results.
you cant make long term plans in argentina.

I dont agree at all. Rugby at a "Pro" level is about winning. We dont win either as Jags or Pumas which should not be an issue if we are constructing something but we are not. We have to play with players that would not get picked in any Europe tier 1 team and then those players play in Pumas. The rule basically kidnapped Pumas to a bad jags team.

This is my opinion i know it but i could not care less for Jags. If they helped great if they dont well bend the rules.

 

[Brigantine]

What about this angle... (genuine question)

If UAR changed the rules now and threw the Jags under the bus... how much of a surprise would it be to the Jags/European players?
I.e. did the players ever really trust UAR to keep their word?

If not... then if they surprise everyone and actually do keep their word this time, then after 2019 will the rule become *more* effective and *less* players will leave? (because people start to trust UAR and believe promises)

Or, is the way things are *now* already just what happens even though people trust UAR. And things will just stay the same if UAR keep their word in 2019.

 

[FNS]

Well, its the first time ever UAR faced something like this so nobody actually knows what to expect. Im guessing promises where made so they are expected to be kept for how long nobody knows. After ISA left it changed the game for UAR suddenly they realized they need to do something so they booked players in contracts for more than one year and started paying more(jags is among the top 5 payers in SR). Yet money in EU is bigger as you all know.

Basically people stay or go to Jags for 2 reasons :

- Either they are not that good to be picked by EU team right away(Regular players and young ones that still needs polishing)
- Want to play in Pumas above all.

Before EU teams would pick Pumas with caps. Now they wait till Jags train them then lure them(ISA was the first, a few others left without even going into Jags). So we are left with 2 weak teams. Since we lack the space(clearly we need another franchise) our player base for Pumas could consist in average players in the coming years.

Maybe we are mistaken and Petite and Cruz are right and in time this will solve it self. Dunno know.