Jaguares issues to Keep players in the future

[FNS]

Well, a little of banter, i got from a good source inside Pladar(Arg training program) that several players of Jags have been approached by European teams with the promise of big $$$.

Also players within Pladar have been already lured away...players that are not even recognizable due to not making it yet to a Pumas/jag team(very young).

Given the policy of no Jags no Pumas...are we slipping into another season of failure with jags and bad results from pumas next year due to the lack of level?

Bear in mind that we already have issues to fill some positions like wings, centers, flyhalf(lol only one).

Thoughts?

 

[Ali AK9]

Argentina have shown they can play good rugga, it can't get any worse really at this state, but if the Jags lose their players, and they keep the overseas policy, Pumas are in big trouble. Boks will never do it, due to the Rand not being able to shape up to the Big Bucks in Europe but some of our best players are sitting in Europe (Bismarck du Plessis, François Steyn, Johan Goosen, Duane Vermuelen, François Louw, Vincent Koch), and Argentina should do everything they can to keep the best players with the Jags or at least overule the overseas policy. Sanzaar is under extreme pressure to alter the format of Super Rugby, so the Jaguars might be eliminated, or have to play in a "Second Division".

 

[Groundhog]

I dunno surely it's bad news for the national team long term to have all of your best players playing in the one team with not very much opportunity for young guys to stake a claim in the big leagues. If a few guys move on, it means more and more young guys are exposed to pro rugby.

 

[FNS]

On one hand yes but Jags probably must maintain some sort of level. If they lose all matches they will be kicked out eventually.

 

[Superalexmarket]

How much pay an average european team and how much a SR franchise? Is it a real big difference?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I don't have that number but i can tell you straight away it's a tricky because it's not SR vs say, Top 14. It is SR+National team vs Top 14.

if you compare the salary of SR vs the salary of Top 14 the difference is huge. Here are some numbers.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...yer-exodus-a-reality-but-no-need-to-panic-yet

 

[Superalexmarket]

Greg Peters resigned as UAR's CEO.
When the boat sinks ...

 

[welshglory]

What's happening with the UAR?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Heard yesterday that Tigers are going after Isa and Matera

From sounds of it Matera would already be signed up if he knows it would affect his chances.

A lot of talk about how much money the jags have.

 

[welshglory]

Heard yesterday that Tigers are going after Isa and Matera

From sounds of it Matera would already be signed up if he knows it would affect his chances.

A lot of talk about how much money the jags have.

Unsurprising in a way. Important to note that Argentina only receives a small percentage of the SANZAR bargaining agreement, Japan none just logistics.

To expand on Cruz del Sur's point above out salaries v Northern Hemisphere it has been a case of an over reliance on the international game for so long. They along with the pro 12 have been sleeping at the wheel since the mid 2000's where it was obvious that the English and French leagues would continue to grow and subsequently global wages. For that I have no real sympathy. I do worry for Argentina though because their path to become a more consistent international side (also to fund their domestic grassroots) will rely on access to their players inside and outside windows to function as a cohesive unit. Super rugby and Pro 12 have started to realise they need to make their competitions more lucrative so that the international game doesn't solely subsidise their professional game but they are so far behind

 

[FNS]

At this rate Jags will never be competitive and Pumas either. They will have to get better salaries or allow European players to join Pumas. As for the guys i dont like it but i understand that money talks and you can play rugby forever they must make the best for they future.

 

[Bruno_ARG]

What about implementing a rule that forces players to have a minimum amount of test matches to be able to go to an European team and still be available to play for the Pumas? The Pumas will remain a competitive team that way. Besides, that would make some of our most experienced players leave Super Rugby but some would stay for a while and the younger players wouldn't be thinking about leaving Argentine rugby for some time. Also, let's hire some foreign players once and for all! Along with a NZ or AU staff of course. What did Perez accomplish to be Jaguares' coach? Nothing.

 

[petite]

the goal of the rule that doesent allow players from overseas to play with los pumas aims to keep players in the jaguares team. if the europeans are allowed to play no good payers will want to play with jaguares.

 

[FNS]

But if Jags players start to leave because of $$$ to europe then the purpose of Jag diminish it's returns. Sure we will have new very young guys to play good rugby but Jags will lose and eventualy if they are not competive well kings showed us what happens.

Also Pumas will be a disgrace(more than now)

 

[Shaggy]

Argentina's task of retaining players would be easier if they had at least one more Super Rugby team.

Not only does one team limit the chances for up and coming players, increasing the chances that they will be picked up by overseas clubs, it also increases the fatigue levels of those playing for the Jaguares and los Pumas.

Losing some players to the Northern sides, as all southern hemisphere nations know, is inevitable, but, there is at least the possibility that they will return in future years, and be available for national selection. if the popularity of the game is on the rise, and the quality and quantity of the players being developed is on the rise also, this should counteract the effects somewhat.

The money that the English and French clubs have at their disposal is substantial, but even they have a limited number of spaces available for overseas players, so i can see an over supply situation possibly occurring when it comes to SH players.

Possibly a rejig of the teams in SR, where Australia or South Africa drop a side, and Argentina gain one, would help everybody.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

the goal of the rule that doesent allow players from overseas to play with los pumas aims to keep players in the jaguares team. if the europeans are allowed to play no good payers will want to play with jaguares.

I see your point, but i am quite afraid of that backfiring. If the difference in salary is big enough (Jags + Pumas vs, say Toulon or Racing) people will still go to Europe at their peak and return when they are well past it (JM Hernandez like), so you would lose them anyway.

Losing some players to the Northern sides, as all southern hemisphere nations know, is inevitable, but, there is at least the possibility that they will return in future years, and be available for national selection.

Maybe not in NZ, but elsewhere, chances are you would lose fantastic players at their peak and have them when they get nostalgic.
Lets rewrite history for a sec: think if Carter and mccaw would have played all their carreer in Europe and came back in 2016 to play for a SR franchise. Sure, they would be fantastic, but chances are you wouldn't have won back to back WCs.

Rugby is still a romantic sport in a way and people still care a bit about the colours they represent. That is changing and will continue to do so (just look at the number of foreign born players in the WC squads!).
The higher the salaries the more you will see this happen. It will take longer in some places but eventually money talks and it has a very, very loud voice.


I sincerely, wholeheartedly wish i am wrong, but the evidence suggests i am not. I see trends and other sports have gone through similar processes.
Most of the SH markets are too small and that does not help. You could argue that making SH rugby appealing to NH viewers could work (works in football, Spanish/Italian football is very popular). My experience is that SR is a very, very, very small niche in Europe and the times at which games are broadcasted are simply ridiculous (5 am when NZ/Aus or 1 am when in Arg).

A SH vs NH game (or two, say the two best from each hemisphere face in semis) could potentially create more interest i guess, but as far as i understand that is out of the question right now.

 

[welshglory]

NZ's model can't be replicated directly in Argentina as they are first and foremost far wealthier! The top end allblacks make good money in comparison with other national unions, not to mention the endorsement deals they can negotiate being New Zealand as well as global superstars, Argentine players don't have that sort of profile.

If the short term goal is to follow the top down model of NZ etc. then surely the Argentinian union needs to make their international game more lucrative. Also if i was an Argentine rugby fan i would also lay off the criticism of taking international games overseas to raise funds. Hopefully they can negotiate a better deal with broadcasters for Super Rugby and Pumas games to get more of a slice of the SANZAAR pie in the next round of negotiations, as i understand Argentina has the highest tv viewing figures for the RC of the SANZAR market so surely that should count for something. A second Argentinian side and/or bringing in the North Americans to expand the market and increase the content might help with boosting ESPN's TV deal, i remember reading that Pichot and the Argentine union intended to have private investment involved in a second team but it was decided that would be too many teams to start off with.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The top end allblacks make good money in comparison with other national unions, not to mention the endorsement deals they can negotiate being New Zealand as well as global superstars, Argentine players don't have that sort of profile.

As far as i understand there is still a considerable difference between NZ and the NH in terms of money. Dan Carter ain't playing there because of his love for french poetry, foi gras and 2009 St Juliens. He could have stayed, earn "decent" money and still play for the all blacks, at least for a year more, but he chose to go and play for a french team. I am not criticizing him, i am just trying to see the facts here.

And the endorsements he gets in NZ can be easily replicated in Europe. He'd be a slightly smaller fish in a much, much larger ocean, which means more money. NZ has two big problems in terms of competing with other NH teams in terms of salaries. The first is that their internal market is kinda small and the second is that their time zone makes it very hard for other countries to follow. How many Europeans do you think wake up at 6 am on a Saturday to watch the Canes play the Landers? I can tell you: very, very few.

As you can see i am not optimistic about this. Cheers

 

[welshglory]

As far as i understand there is still a considerable difference between NZ and the NH in terms of money. Dan Carter ain't playing there because of his love for french poetry, foi gras and 2009 St Juliens. He could have stayed, earn "decent" money and still play for the all blacks, at least for a year more, but he chose to go and play for a french team. I am not criticizing him, i am just trying to see the facts here.

And the endorsements he gets in NZ can be easily replicated in Europe. He'd be a slightly smaller fish in a much, much larger ocean, which means more money. NZ has two big problems in terms of competing with other NH teams in terms of salaries. The first is that their internal market is kinda small and the second is that their time zone makes it very hard for other countries to follow. How many Europeans do you think wake up at 6 am on a Saturday to watch the Canes play the Landers? I can tell you: very, very few.

As you can see i am not optimistic about this. Cheers

I was more directing that to Shaggy.
What i'm saying is although New Zealand is facing a challenge like the rest of the Southern Hemisphere, they also have ways around it which Argentina for example cannot replicate unless they grow revenue streams.

To answer your reply Carter is a special case, he's the biggest superstar in the game and his value goes far beyond his onfield play. The biggest difference is the superstar salaries and super rugby players, the guys in the Allblacks get very competitive pay, but yes Europe will continue to offer more and push the boundaries. Carter and McCaw were making at least 650k Euro, Carter probably more with his endorsements, Read and Barrett are on that now. That's not a million pounds but it's up there with the best paid players in Europe at the moment, Argentinian players get nowhere near that amount for Top 14 clubs even. Plus there is the point of playing for the Allblacks and all the extra incentives the NZRU has for it's players.
The NZRU can afford it as well, the money comes from their broadcast deals etc.. In comparison the Irish and Welsh have to eat into their revenue which should be going towards grassroots and development pathways as the provinces and regions cannot afford all that much with the **** Pro 12 tv deals they have.

 

[FNS]

Maybe a little table will work like: Players from 18-22 must play at least 3 years in SR before going to Europe to be able to be selected to Pumas. 25-28 2 years, etc. The old the less SR time so the guys can make some profit.

That way we will have lots of players, that played and were formed at great SR level + Pumas. Also add like after 2/3 in Europe you have to return 1 year or 2 to SR. So they come and go and we can keep a lot of players trainned.