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Jake White on SA rugby
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<blockquote data-quote="Bruce_ma gooshvili" data-source="post: 816359" data-attributes="member: 74121"><p>Thanks for the detailed and informative response Heineken, I appreciate that I am treading on a sensitive subject that ardent rugby fans are passionate about. I remain of the personal opinion that it would do your society or the sport you love no favours to fail to tap into 90% of the population but accept that quotas are far from ideal (even as a relatively short-medium term solution) and totally accept there are robust counter arguments. </p><p></p><p>A few points I'd make in response are;</p><p></p><p>a) it is not racist to say that seeing someone with a similar background as you (e.g. skin colour, accent) play a sport might make you as a kid more inclined to pursue that sport. My failure growing up to ever hear a Scottish rugby player who spoke anything like me or my friends is a large reason why I have the Italian flag in my profile rather than the Scottish one. As a kid I never really could relate to the bunch of southern-hemisphere born, non-Scottish UK and/or almost uniformly upper middle class players that seemed to form the entire Scottish team for years on end. They might as well have been from another planet to me (thankfully that is improving and their is now broader social representation in the team, including fantastic and highly skilled ex-fee paying schoolboys). </p><p></p><p>b) The suggestion that black kids are less inclined to pursue a sport with a lot of physical contact isn't something I can agree with as a long term follower of American football. It's filled with black and white men that delight in some of the most extreme physical contact in sport. I'm sure most of them will have East African heritage rather than Southern Africa, but I don't think that would make a huge difference. </p><p></p><p>c) If quotas are used extensively around the world in education to increase the chance of a kid from a deprived area to receive a "top education" then I don't see why it should be utterly unacceptable for sport to do similar. Some of the objectives are broadly the same in both arenas. Quotas are widely used in UK TV, for example, no panel/quiz show on state TV is allowed unless it includes at least one female. That's not about beating men on the head, it's about letting young girls know that they can grow up to be a comedian too if they want. This rule is not imposed by female supremacists looking for revenge, but by moderate political forces that considered TV wasn't doing enough to be welcoming to woman and, because it had failed to do so,'direct action had to be taken. </p><p></p><p>d) I understand that the current quota rule (if it is indeed in place, which your Sports minister confusingly appears to deny?) allows 16 places in the squad of 23 to be held by white athletes. So crudely 10% of the population can in theory hold over two thirds of the places in a match day squad. To try and draw a direct comparison between that and the apartheid situation where (correct me if I am wrong) it was guaranteed that 0% of the players must ever be of colour is not a fair comparison. Two wrongs do not make a right, but we are talking about two very different scales of wrong with different motivations. And the second wrong arguably would never have been seen as being required if the first wrong hadn't made participation in top level rugby and cricket all but impossible for large sections of society. A Kevin Pietersen of this world has never been put in a position that is comparable to being excluded from something because of the colour of your skin. No matter how much he might lose it due to the rules. </p><p></p><p>e) The Boks had a disappointing 7s at the Olympics but are filled with top non-white talent. It'd be hard to argue there are any players in that side who are not there on merit. I don't see why what is the reality in your current 7s team could not also become the reality in XVs. In a few years time the XVs, like the 7s, might reach the stage that the perceived need for quotas has disappeared, with kids and adults from all different backgrounds being given a fair shake of the stick. I am assuming that there are no quotas for the 7s of course. </p><p></p><p>f) I am sure certain ethnic groups are not fully supportive of gender equality. It's a shame SA rugby reinforced the perception that rugby is a "man's game" by not sending a women's team to the Olympics. I've no idea the ethnicity of whoever took that decision though, so this point may be off topic. But if it was white men then that ethnic group is also partly culpable for what you highlight. </p><p></p><p>g) my posting of the link to the aerial photographs wasn't to guilt trip anyone but to genuinely ask if you felt a kid with great physical potential, born into poverty in SA would have any realistic prospect to develop into a top rugby or cricket player if government had not taken steps to encourage the uptake of certain sports in non-white communities. While it's not as much of a problem with football (e.g. the stereotype of poor Brazilian kid who makes it), rugby across many Tier 1 nations has been abysmal in the 20th century (and sometimes beyond) in engaging with kids from poorer backgrounds. I think we'd be sitting with the ocassional Habana, JP Pietersen and Philander somehow making it to the top if SA sport if politics didn't take steps to expand the appeal of the sport. Again, this is not just an SA issue, it's a rugby issue. I think SA society would be poorer if sporting uptake of kids (and support of adults) was largely down to what community you grew up in, with each community largely doing their own thing. </p><p></p><p>h) Quotas can be considered awful. But they may be less awful than doing nothing and accepting a situation that, to a casual observer, may not look a whole of a lot different to what existed shortly after the end of apartheid.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bruce_ma gooshvili, post: 816359, member: 74121"] Thanks for the detailed and informative response Heineken, I appreciate that I am treading on a sensitive subject that ardent rugby fans are passionate about. I remain of the personal opinion that it would do your society or the sport you love no favours to fail to tap into 90% of the population but accept that quotas are far from ideal (even as a relatively short-medium term solution) and totally accept there are robust counter arguments. A few points I'd make in response are; a) it is not racist to say that seeing someone with a similar background as you (e.g. skin colour, accent) play a sport might make you as a kid more inclined to pursue that sport. My failure growing up to ever hear a Scottish rugby player who spoke anything like me or my friends is a large reason why I have the Italian flag in my profile rather than the Scottish one. As a kid I never really could relate to the bunch of southern-hemisphere born, non-Scottish UK and/or almost uniformly upper middle class players that seemed to form the entire Scottish team for years on end. They might as well have been from another planet to me (thankfully that is improving and their is now broader social representation in the team, including fantastic and highly skilled ex-fee paying schoolboys). b) The suggestion that black kids are less inclined to pursue a sport with a lot of physical contact isn't something I can agree with as a long term follower of American football. It's filled with black and white men that delight in some of the most extreme physical contact in sport. I'm sure most of them will have East African heritage rather than Southern Africa, but I don't think that would make a huge difference. c) If quotas are used extensively around the world in education to increase the chance of a kid from a deprived area to receive a "top education" then I don't see why it should be utterly unacceptable for sport to do similar. Some of the objectives are broadly the same in both arenas. Quotas are widely used in UK TV, for example, no panel/quiz show on state TV is allowed unless it includes at least one female. That's not about beating men on the head, it's about letting young girls know that they can grow up to be a comedian too if they want. This rule is not imposed by female supremacists looking for revenge, but by moderate political forces that considered TV wasn't doing enough to be welcoming to woman and, because it had failed to do so,'direct action had to be taken. d) I understand that the current quota rule (if it is indeed in place, which your Sports minister confusingly appears to deny?) allows 16 places in the squad of 23 to be held by white athletes. So crudely 10% of the population can in theory hold over two thirds of the places in a match day squad. To try and draw a direct comparison between that and the apartheid situation where (correct me if I am wrong) it was guaranteed that 0% of the players must ever be of colour is not a fair comparison. Two wrongs do not make a right, but we are talking about two very different scales of wrong with different motivations. And the second wrong arguably would never have been seen as being required if the first wrong hadn't made participation in top level rugby and cricket all but impossible for large sections of society. A Kevin Pietersen of this world has never been put in a position that is comparable to being excluded from something because of the colour of your skin. No matter how much he might lose it due to the rules. e) The Boks had a disappointing 7s at the Olympics but are filled with top non-white talent. It'd be hard to argue there are any players in that side who are not there on merit. I don't see why what is the reality in your current 7s team could not also become the reality in XVs. In a few years time the XVs, like the 7s, might reach the stage that the perceived need for quotas has disappeared, with kids and adults from all different backgrounds being given a fair shake of the stick. I am assuming that there are no quotas for the 7s of course. f) I am sure certain ethnic groups are not fully supportive of gender equality. It's a shame SA rugby reinforced the perception that rugby is a "man's game" by not sending a women's team to the Olympics. I've no idea the ethnicity of whoever took that decision though, so this point may be off topic. But if it was white men then that ethnic group is also partly culpable for what you highlight. g) my posting of the link to the aerial photographs wasn't to guilt trip anyone but to genuinely ask if you felt a kid with great physical potential, born into poverty in SA would have any realistic prospect to develop into a top rugby or cricket player if government had not taken steps to encourage the uptake of certain sports in non-white communities. While it's not as much of a problem with football (e.g. the stereotype of poor Brazilian kid who makes it), rugby across many Tier 1 nations has been abysmal in the 20th century (and sometimes beyond) in engaging with kids from poorer backgrounds. I think we'd be sitting with the ocassional Habana, JP Pietersen and Philander somehow making it to the top if SA sport if politics didn't take steps to expand the appeal of the sport. Again, this is not just an SA issue, it's a rugby issue. I think SA society would be poorer if sporting uptake of kids (and support of adults) was largely down to what community you grew up in, with each community largely doing their own thing. h) Quotas can be considered awful. But they may be less awful than doing nothing and accepting a situation that, to a casual observer, may not look a whole of a lot different to what existed shortly after the end of apartheid. [/QUOTE]
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