June International Test: Australia vs. England [2nd Test] (18/06/2016)

[spartan32]

Didn't think big centres coming up the middle was a problem? I guess you mean apart from Kuridrani and Folau's tries?

Kidriani try was at pint blank range and no one was going to stop him from there. Falou try was great running line and guile by Foley. Not sure his size had anything to do with it, Kyle Eastmond runs similar lines for Bath and he's tiny. My point is that the Aussies aren't running powerful guys head long down the middle into likes of Ford, meaning you don't need massive centres to act as road blocks, just some sound tackling and positioning.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Kidriani try was at pint blank range and no one was going to stop him from there. Falou try was great running line and guile by Foley. Not sure his size had anything to do with it, Kyle Eastmond runs similar lines for Bath and he's tiny. My point is that the Aussies aren't running powerful guys head long down the middle into likes of Ford, meaning you don't need massive centres to act as road blocks, just some sound tackling and positioning.

Agree with that.

Worth keeping in mind that they have the option though, Plan A is to run around us wide and our wide defence was poor enough that they were able to do that. If we do sort our wide defnce out nad they can't get round us, they may well use the big boys as a Plan B

 

[Timbo]

It's quite possible that we were often short out wide because our midfield were worried about their two huge centres. But it's also worth remembering that Lealilfano played at 12 from the 28th minute onwards and they moved the debut Fijian to the wing. Will be interesting to see how their midfield combo works over a longer period.

 

[spartan32]

There's no doubt that the Aussie midfield will pose an attacking threat, but let's not forget what we have to offer. JJ is a really good attacking player with lethal feet and an eye for an opportunity, same can be said for Watson, who needs to be brought into the game more, and Nowell consistently beats defenders and puts teams on the back foot. Youngs needs to pick up the pace and take advantage of that and keep the Aussies on their heels. Even Faz has greatly improved his running game of late and he's actually a quite a big guy. It's just a shame that Brown isn't really the attacking threat he once was. He's just loosing his pace, even if he makes a clean break he's going to get chased down.

Where I think we really lack is ball carrying forwards. To many big lumps heading directly into traffic and then not even attempting the offload, taking the ball to ground and slowing the pace of the game, while at the same time inviting the Aussie back row to get their grubby mitts all over the ball.

We also need a much better kick chase. Really put the Aussies under pressure so that they are forced into errors, or into kicking the ball back to us. The last thing we need is Falou running at us in broken play.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I know that last game the big backs didn't target Ford much, but this was because:
1. Ford wasn't expected to start, so they wouldn't have based a game plan around him.
2. Kerevi was never at 12 when Ford was on the pitch, he'd moved to wing with Lilly in at 12.

Now that Ford is starting, and Kerevi's back at 12, I think it would to be foolish to assume that a 108kg 12 isn't going to somewhat target an 80kg 10.

As for not having carriers in our pack, that will come. For now Jones is opting for reliability with the likes of Cole, Robshaw, Haskell etc. but I wouldn't expect them to be starting past 2017. After that I would expect a more mobile, faster, more powerful pack, starting players like Hill, Clifford, Harrison, Ewers?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As crap as Ford is in defence it's not like this is his first time playing against a big lad.
He's done it quite a lot for club and country before.

 

[ncurd]

As crap as Ford is in defence it's not like this is his first time playing against a big lad.
He's done it quite a lot for club and country before.

Aye I've heard the "we'll target Ford" line several hundred times now. The reality is whilst its a problem its a manageable one that doesn't cost games in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

As crap as Ford is in defence it's not like this is his first time playing against a big lad.
He's done it quite a lot for club and country before.

None like Kerevi though. He didn't show up much in the last test, but good God the kid can run. I doubt Ford has ever come across a big also has the pace and skill that Kerevi possesses, he is truly a freak, more so than Roberts, Tuilagi, McCloskey, the lot of them.

 

[Every Time Ref]

None like Kerevi though. He didn't show up much in the last test, but good God the kid can run. I doubt Ford has ever come across a big also has the pace and skill that Kerevi possesses, he is truly a freak, more so than Roberts, Tuilagi, McCloskey, the lot of them.

I'd never seen him play before the first test but can't help feeling if he's that much more effective a ball carrier than those three I would have noticed him.

I also get pretty tired of the lame truism that "teams will send big runners down Ford's channel". Yes, he'll give up metres - it's one of the hundreds of different factors at play which all combine to affect the outcome of the match. It's not the be all and end all. Players have weaknesses for God's sake, no-one kicks up a stink because Folau can't kick.

I think it's a weird English, possibly British Isles, idea that one of the key criteria for picking your playmaker is how well he tackles back rowers.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd never seen him play before the first test but can't help feeling if he's that much more effective a ball carrier than those three I would have noticed him.

I also get pretty tired of the lame truism that "teams will send big runners down Ford's channel". Yes, he'll give up metres - it's one of the hundreds of different factors at play which all combine to affect the outcome of the match. It's not the be all and end all. Players have weaknesses for God's sake, no-one kicks up a stink because Folau can't kick.

I think it's a weird English, possibly British Isles, idea that one of the key criteria for picking your playmaker is how well he tackles back rowers.

He was stuck on the wing for Horne after 28 minutes so didn't get to show off as much as he could've done. And come on, in international rugby, as a ball carrier Tuilagi never showed up in the 6 Nations when he came off the bench and neither did McCloskey in his game vs England. Roberts has been doing far better than those 2, but nothing of much note recently, so I think to say that because Kerevi didn't show up much in his debut in which he only got 1/2 an hour in his position, means that he is ruled out of being any better than Tuilagi, McCloskey or Roberts at ball carrying is unfair. Just watch some of his Super Rugby highlights and you'll see what I mean, the man's a freak.

As for the comments on Ford, I don't think anyone was suggesting that we'd lose the game through his defensive incapabilities, but that he is very much an Achilles heel in an otherwise defensively strong back line. Undoubtedly the right call to put him in though, he was superb last week.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Aye I've heard the "we'll target Ford" line several hundred times now. The reality is whilst its a problem its a manageable one that doesn't cost games in the grand scheme of things.

To be fair, it's largely been the Welsh who have said that and they are much more predictable than the Aussies. Any time Roberts got the ball you knew he was just going to crash into someone, he didn't present any offloading or passing threat to keep defences guessing. He would just get double teamed and then slow down the breakdown so the fact 2 players were needed to bring him down is nullified by the fact the Welsh couldn't get fast ball off him.

 

[Every Time Ref]

He was stuck on the wing for Horne after 28 minutes so didn't get to show off as much as he could've done. And come on, in international rugby, as a ball carrier Tuilagi never showed up in the 6 Nations when he came off the bench and neither did McCloskey in his game vs England. Roberts has been doing far better than those 2, but nothing of much note recently, so I think to say that because Kerevi didn't show up much in his debut in which he only got 1/2 an hour in his position, means that he is ruled out of being any better than Tuilagi, McCloskey or Roberts at ball carrying is unfair. Just watch some of his Super Rugby highlights and you'll see what I mean, the man's a freak.

As for the comments on Ford, I don't think anyone was suggesting that we'd lose the game through his defensive incapabilities, but that he is very much an Achilles heel in an otherwise defensively strong back line. Undoubtedly the right call to put him in though, he was superb last week.

I'm sure he's good - but you said he's a whole other level from Tuilagi, Roberts and McClosky, that's a big big claim. Also, ball carrying isn't that different on the wing to in the centre - he still had 80 minutes.

I'm not saying he isn't good, but I don't believe he is so far ahead of all other big ball carrying centres in international rugby that he poses a uniquely impossible defensive challenge for Ford, who has played internationally against 2 of the 3 you mentioned and not been noticeably humiliated.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm sure he's good - but you said he's a whole other level from Tuilagi, Roberts and McClosky, that's a big big claim. Also, ball carrying isn't that different on the wing to in the centre - he still had 80 minutes.

I'm not saying he isn't good, but I don't believe he is so far ahead of all other big ball carrying centres in international rugby that he poses a uniquely impossible defensive challenge for Ford, who has played internationally against 2 of the 3 you mentioned and not been noticeably humiliated.

He's not really a "crash ball" centre though. In my mind, crash balls are centres that have the intention of taking contact and knocking the defence back a bit. Kerevi is different in that when he carries, he aims to get slightly on the outside of the player and bust through the tackle into open space. Granted, it works better for him at 13, but I'm sure he will be able to translate that to 12.

This is why I think he'll pose such a threat to Ford. When Roberts takes the ball to him, he opts to take the contact so is slowed down, giving Ford the chance to get him down or others to help him out. Kerevi has the ability to just bust straight past him.

Anyway, I'm sure that Jones will have a plan for the back rowers to back Ford up should he need it and hopefully Kerevi and Kuridrani will be contained. But if not, they will dominate us. In my mind, this game will be won or lost by England's ability to manage the Oz strike runners.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

None like Kerevi though. He didn't show up much in the last test, but good God the kid can run. I doubt Ford has ever come across a big also has the pace and skill that Kerevi possesses, he is truly a freak, more so than Roberts, Tuilagi, McCloskey, the lot of them.

Bull ****.
He's a strong runner but he is not ten hundred thousand times stronger than the likes of Manu, Roberts, Bastareud etc.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Bull ****.
He's a strong runner but he is not ten hundred thousand times stronger than the likes of Manu, Roberts, Bastareud etc.

Hang on, when did I ever suggest he was stronger then them? I quite clearly said that the reason he's so dangerous is the extra pace and skill he possesses, which is far superior the to players I suggested (Maybe Manu could match pace). If it was just a game of strength then Manu and Roberts would both probably have him, but it's not.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not seen anything from Kerevi playing for the reds to suggest he's anywhere close to being a "freak".

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Not seen anything from Kerevi playing for the reds to suggest he's anywhere close to being a "freak".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODH8taNaZ3I feel free to have a gander. 18 seconds in is a perfect display of his "freakishness." Sadly, a highlights video has not been made of him this season, as this is the year that he's really stepped his game up, but I think there's enough here to show that, purely as a runner he has Roberts, McCloskey and Manu beat. Maybe not pre 2014 Manu, but certainly Manu of recent form. There are also some top quality offloads in there, which show off his skill.

I probably did over exaggerate him a bit at first, but he is undeniably a hell of a player, and I think it's 100% fair to call him a freak. And when you think that he's younger than Slade or Ford (Only 22) and think of how far he still has to come, it's a terrifying thought. Especially if the Wallabies decide to play him in his position (13).

 

[Every Time Ref]

He's not really a "crash ball" centre though. In my mind, crash balls are centres that have the intention of taking contact and knocking the defence back a bit. Kerevi is different in that when he carries, he aims to get slightly on the outside of the player and bust through the tackle into open space. Granted, it works better for him at 13, but I'm sure he will be able to translate that to 12.

This is why I think he'll pose such a threat to Ford. When Roberts takes the ball to him, he opts to take the contact so is slowed down, giving Ford the chance to get him down or others to help him out. Kerevi has the ability to just bust straight past him.

OK, but Ford's weakness in defence is getting smashed head on by big power runners, not getting done on the outside.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

OK, but Ford's weakness in defence is getting smashed head on by big power runners, not getting done on the outside.

He doesn't "do people on the outside," it's just that when looks to get past a player, he doesn't crash straight into them (Like Roberts) but opts to target their outside shoulder so that the defender can't just hit him straight up, they have to get him by the legs, which he just kicks his way through.

 

[Every Time Ref]

He doesn't "do people on the outside," it's just that when looks to get past a player, he doesn't crash straight into them (Like Roberts) but opts to target their outside shoulder so that the defender can't just hit him straight up, they have to get him by the legs, which he just kicks his way through.

Lots of players do that (Tuilagi for example), I fail to see why this marks him out particularly.

Edit: Plus, Ford WANTS to tackle him that way. He doesn't want a head on collision, he wants to take him from the side and sacrifice some yards for an easier tackle.