June International Test: New Zealand vs. Wales [2nd Test] (18/06/2016)

[smartcooky]

I think we need to give Fekitoa a reasonable amount of time before we write him off.

He's now finally the starting centre. It takes time to really fill those boots. Filling Nonu's and Conrads is a big job, Nonu wasn't perfect in his first few years in the All Blacks

.. And Conrad was frankly, not all that flash either.

Hard to judge Fekitoa on the basis of that match after he gets his head split open and his knee injured in the first couple of minutes. Besides, the second and third years at the next level up is often the most difficult for any player.

I was not all that impressed with Tamanivalu in this game; he didn't really do anything to convince me that he is a better prospect than Fekitoa. He was out of position and missing from the midfield defence when Liam Willimas broke the line for Wales' second try, and that attempt at a chip kick which led to Wales' third try was just a brain explosion... you don't chip when the defensive line is packed and almost on top of you, and you have two players wide and in space.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Dagg is still a world cup winner and his qualities some what undervalued these days because of how good Ben Smith is. He had a dip in form last season and was patchy with injuries, but he's still extremely experienced and stable. Romano probably wouldn't have made the RWC squad last year if Tuipulotu wasn't injured, but he's still an outstanding player and to simple "not rate him" is just foolish. Mate, I highly believe these players are better than what most of the world are offering and I still stand by the belief that given a few key injuries, on the day we can still beat anyone.

Foolish? It's just an opinion mate. The reason I don't rate him is he's never had massive game at test level and he's so,so when I've seen him play for the Crusaders. ABs depth at lock is not that hot. ABs have two world class locks in Whitelock and Retallick, then Tuipulotu who I do rate, but still raw at test level. Romano is not world class and if either Retallick and Whitelock are fit, he wouldn't get into the team; even the bench is debateable as how much of an impact sub would he be.. Would Romano go straight into the England team if he was English? I doubt it. I'd rate Itoje, Kruis and Lauchbury ahead of him.

 

[Larksea]

needlessly negative from The_Blindside

Romano deserves more credit than he gets. We are pretty lucky having whitelock and retalick, I don't think anyone would argue that they are not the best locking partnership in World rugby right now. But every time Romano has come in as cover he has done a good job, without fail. He is a worthy All Black.

Tuipolotu is a regular All Black now and he makes an impact pretty much every time he gets on the field. He's building experience nicely. IMO the All Blacks have pioneered the 23 man game where the bench players are just as important as the starting players. Sometimes even more so.

We have a lot of depth at 9, Smith prob the best 9 in the world now Genia seems to have gone off the radar. But behind him TJP and TKB have been building experience and have both been more and more consistent in their performances when they have gotten chances. Was a game against Argentina last year(?) where Perinara's delivery was nigh on perfect and IMO he basically won us the game. Then we have Weber waiting in the wings as well who is a very smart player who will likely do well at test level when he gets his chance. Plus Pulu whos in the 7's...

no sure where you are going with your comment about Goodes, JTA, Tu'ungafasi, Edmunds... yes we are low on test experience behind our 4 regular test props with woodcock and Ben Franks gone. So what?... what we do have is some really good talent there. I'm a big fan of Edmonds, and you forgot Laulala who played an impressive part with the AB's last year prior to the WC. Hes currently injured but will be back. Forget JTA, I think he has been overtaken by a number of other guys in the last couple of seasons. Overall I think its pretty amazing we have lost woodcock. Arguably our best loosehead ever, arguably the best loosehead ever in the game full stop, and we don't really miss him because of the development of Joe Moody.

We've lost Mealamu but his presence is more missed as a leader of the squad, mealamu was a "standard setter" in the squad and I think Coles is actually maturing really well and he will be filling that role now. Harris and Taylor are fantastic backups, we have a lot of depth at hooker these days.

Yes it takes time to get up to speed at test level. But the coaches have been planning and preparing for the retirements of those players for a long time. The perfect example is Sam Cane, McCaw has just retired yet Cane has been a regular All Black for ~3 years now, has over 30 caps, is part of the All Blacks leadership group, has been so for a couple of years and hes only 24 years old! Same with 10, carter has gone but Cruden and Barrett both have ~40(?) test caps.

And now we have room in the squad to carry and develop McKenzie & Savea(A) for the future.

Our only real issue for urgent attention is midfield, Crotty and Fekitoa have been around for a couple of seasons and have some good experience (~15 caps each) but they still have a way to go. And its likely not a long term combination, i think its fair to say that the long term option to build our midfield around is Charlie Ngatai - had some injury issues but hes arguably the most complete midfielder around right now.

 

[Sker]

*sigh* It must be amazing to be an AB's fan

 

[Larksea]

back to the test...

I think it was a quality game, better from both sides. No disrespect but I think the injuries to Fekitoa & Cruden, most of all the long injury break in the game when Cruden was taken off really helped Wales. We have seen in the past that when there is a long break in the game like that levels the playing field, the AB's don't get their trademark dominance in the last 20 as the opposition tire because of the break in the game. But they still found a period of dominance in that 2nd half and ran in 3 quick tries. But it was more from good play rather than the welsh getting tired.

On the AB's a few talking points.

I thought Sam Cane had a really good game, he got stuck into everything. I think if the people who are hating on him actually sat down and watched the game following him and watching what he does they would change their minds.

Read was phenomenal.

Dagg had a good comeback in the first half. But was quiet in the 2nd and did make some mistakes as the welsh got some comeback points. His boot was handy to have and well used. I would still rather see Ben Smith at 15 and Dagg at 11. let Naholo play in his natural position as well.

Ben Smith was superb the whole way through.

Barrett again did a fantastic job coming off the bench early. Deserves to start the final test and will have the chance to get that monkey off his back, being seen as a better bench player than a starter. I think hes matured a lot since he got his chances starting.

Naholo had a big game. Good on defense, less mistakes. made some good decisions.

Concerns over midfield, Fekitoa did a little better the time he was on the field but overall hasn't had a great couple of tests. I thought Seta was actually very good apart from that one passage of play with the poor kick and then getting dumped by Davies resulting in a try. But apart from that he surprised me, what he had was the confidence to play his own game and be himself. HE worked hard and got involved. Crotty IMO hasn't been that great, he did that kick pass which was probably a mistake, I don't think he intended for it to go flat like that but it happened to work out. The angle of it could have worked out badly for the AB's if it had been intercepted. I think we got a bit lucky there but from then on, the work between Naholo and Read then eventually the finish was fantastic.

 

[smartcooky]

Our only real issue for urgent attention is midfield, Crotty and Fekitoa have been around for a couple of seasons and have some good experience (~15 caps each) but they still have a way to go. And its likely not a long term combination, i think its fair to say that the long term option to build our midfield around is Charlie Ngatai - had some injury issues but hes arguably the most complete midfielder around right now.

I also would not rule out George Moala being involved in the All Black midfield,. He is a an excellent ball carrier and a very hard tackler, although his distribution skills need work. And of course you forgot SBW who will be back from Olympic Sevens duties by the time the RC starts, and he is signed to the NZRU until after the Lions tour.

 

[Larksea]

I also would not rule out George Moala being involved in the All Black midfield,. He is a an excellent ball carrier and a very hard tackler, although his distribution skills need work. And of course you forgot SBW who will be back from Olympic Sevens duties by the time the RC starts, and he is signed to the NZRU until after the Lions tour.

I actually think given the chance Moala would do a lot better than Fekitoa & Crotty have done in these two tests so far. I think hes a better player than his blues form suggests, we don't need everyone in the backline to be a top level distributor. he does well enough, but his straight running game and physicality would be a huge boon for the AB's. The welsh made most of their inroads through midfield, Moala is a bloody good defender, again better than his blues numbers this year suggest. Seta has thrived with Weber, Cruden & Ngatai around him. Moala hasn't had that quality, blues selections have been inconsistent. I think the ITM cup was a better gauge on his form and ability.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I also would not rule out George Moala being involved in the All Black midfield,. He is a an excellent ball carrier and a very hard t tackler, although his distribution skills need work. And of course you forgot SBW who will be back from Olympic Sevens duties by the time the RC starts, and he is signed to the NZRU until after the Lions tour.

He's signed until the next World Cup isn't he? It's a shame that NZ's 2 best centres are 12s (SBW and Ngatai). Can/Should Ngatai go 13 outside SBW? If not I think a SBW-Fekiota would work well. It did in the RWC, and I think everyone's being a bit harsh on Fekitoa. Give him time to settle. He's playing outside a 10 and 12 he's had little/no game time with. I also don't think he's being played to his strengths. He's being used as quite a tight ball carrier, when he should be given more so he can really open up his legs. I think playing outside Sonny would do that, as if SBW can do anything, it's draw defenders.

For the 3rd test I'd like to see: (I'm not too familiar with AB props so I won't mention them, but I want to see Faumaina start)

2. D Coles
4. P Tuipulotu
5. S Whitelock
6. E Dixon
7. S Cane
8. K Read
9. A Smith
10. L Sopoaga
11. W Naholo
12. G Moala
13. M Fekitoa
14. B Smith
15. I Dagg

16. N Harris
19. L Squire
20. A Savea
21. T Perenara
22. B Barrett
23. D McKenzie

I've left out Retallick as we all know he's world class, I don't see the point in putting him out in a game the ABs will probably see as an experimentation game. I'd be far more interested to see how Tuipulotu does starting. Hansen has also commented on Read potentially covering lock, so he can go there if there's an injury.

Dixon for similar reasons to Tuipulotu, we all know what Kaino can do. Dixon needs a run out.

I've started Moala as he's a big, physical centre and I think will go better with Fekitoa.

Was tempted to start McKenzie over Dagg, but I think dropping Dagg straight after bringing him back into the side would be very poor player management.

Again, tempted to give Savea another go, but to really give him the kick up the ass he needs, he can't get another go until RC.

Squire because he also deserves a go in an All Blacks jersey.

 

[Rockradar]

I think we need to give Fekitoa a reasonable amount of time before we write him off.

Of course.

The thing is for me is WHY Fekitoa was ever selected. Fekitoa had started his Super career with the Highlanders as a line breaker and that's what got him selected and rightfully so. Only now that he's an All Black and I'm wondering..

- has Fekitoa broken the line of tier one nations at all?
- has he delivered on the basis he was selected for in the first place? (INDIVIDUAL brilliance)
- was he selected for his tackling and sparking the backline?

If he was selected for the last question of those three above then we might as well select someone who's strong in those areas or REALLY strong in either one.

Fekitoa for me is not delivering on what he was picked for. He's had enough game time to at least make one line break.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Of course.

The thing is for me is WHY Fekitoa was ever selected. Fekitoa had started his Super career with the Highlanders as a line breaker and that's what got him selected and rightfully so. Only now that he's an All Black and I'm wondering..

- has Fekitoa broken the line of tier one nations at all?
- has he delivered on the basis he was selected for in the first place? (INDIVIDUAL brilliance)
- was he selected for his tackling and sparking the backline?

If he was selected for the last question of those three above then we might as well select someone who's strong in those areas or REALLY strong in either one.

Fekitoa for me is not delivering on what he was picked for.

He broke the SA line a couple of times when he started at 12 in 2014. But that's pretty useless knowledge. Again, I think everyone's being too critical of Fekitoa. Give him the RC, and if he hasn't delivered by then, then a replacement can be considered.

If Piutau had stayed in NZ do you think he'd get a look in? Either at 15 with Smith 13 or Smith at FB with Piutau 13? I'd have liked to have seen that.

 

[Rockradar]

He broke the SA line a couple of times when he started at 12 in 2014. But that's pretty useless knowledge. Again, I think everyone's being too critical of Fekitoa. Give him the RC, and if he hasn't delivered by then, then a replacement can be considered.

If Piutau had stayed in NZ do you think he'd get a look in? Either at 15 with Smith 13 or Smith at FB with Piutau 13? I'd have liked to have seen that.

Did he really cos I can not remember it. You sure he wasn't set up?

Piutau? Definitely, he's a handful with a good skill set. Position? Probably wing or centre. I mean if I look at what Fekitoa was doing in the Wales game, it's nothing that Piutau couldnt do.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Did he really cos I can not remember it. You sure he wasn't set up?

Piutau? Definitely, he's a handful with a good skill set. Position? Probably wing or centre. I mean if I look at what Fekitoa was doing in the Wales game, it's nothing that Piutau couldnt do.

I just watched the highlights, and yes Fekitoa definitely got a couple of line breaks, 1 of which resulted in him scoring from about 30m out. He is an excellent line breaker when given the ability to really run the ball. I don't think the ABs have let him do that over the last couple of games.

 

[Five Meters Out]

back to the test...


I thought Sam Cane had a really good game, he got stuck into everything. I think if the people who are hating on him actually sat down and watched the game following him and watching what he does they would change their minds.

Those who criticise Sam Cane are not fully conversant with the nuances of the game of rugby.

 

[Larksea]

Piutau was definitely seen as an option in the All Blacks Midfield era post Smith & Nonu before he left. I'm pretty sure he even got a fair bit of time at 13 for the blues and Hansen had spoken of his prospects at 13.

I may be being a bit brutal on Fekitoa here but I think he really needs to lift his game. When he came on the scene in his first highlanders season he was very impressive and some of this early All Black appearances were good but I dont think hes done a lot since then, his selection now does seem to be on faith rather than form, plus his experience of being in the AB setup for a couple of years he knows the drill. On form you would probably put him quite far down the pecking order, behind guys like Ngatai, Moala, Seta and even guys like Faddes, Proctor, Buckman(injured) and anton lienert-brown who's only 21 and starting to look good at the chiefs, was very good against Wales in the midweek game. Fekitoa has held his own at the highlanders but he hasn't been spectacular, hasn't really re-earned his AB selection on form.

Its one thing to keep giving Fekitoa more tests to find his feet at test level if he was still earning his spot with super rugby form, But I don't think he has done that recently.

 

[Rockradar]

I just watched the highlights, and yes Fekitoa definitely got a couple of line breaks, 1 of which resulted in him scoring from about 30m out. He is an excellent line breaker when given the ability to really run the ball. I don't think the ABs have let him do that over the last couple of games.

Ok I stand corrected. I won't even bother to check that after the trouble you've been to. A couple of breaks even??..

Well I hope to see that soon. I'm sure Hansen wants him to really run with the ball though as that is why he was picked.

- - - Updated - - -

Piutau was definitely seen as an option in the All Blacks Midfield era post Smith & Nonu before he left. I'm pretty sure he even got a fair bit of time at 13 for the blues and Hansen had spoken of his prospects at 13.

I may be being a bit brutal on Fekitoa here but I think he really needs to lift his game. When he came on the scene in his first highlanders season he was very impressive and some of this early All Black appearances were good but I dont think hes done a lot since then, his selection now does seem to be on faith rather than form, plus his experience of being in the AB setup for a couple of years he knows the drill. On form you would probably put him quite far down the pecking order, behind guys like Ngatai, Moala, Seta and even guys like Faddes, Proctor, Buckman(injured) and anton lienert-brown who's only 21 and starting to look good at the chiefs, was very good against Wales in the midweek game. Fekitoa has held his own at the highlanders but he hasn't been spectacular, hasn't really re-earned his AB selection on form.

Its one thing to keep giving Fekitoa more tests to find his feet at test level if he was still earning his spot with super rugby form, But I don't think he has done that recently.

Bro did you read my post? You just copied what I said about Fekitoa lol. It's obvious as that he's not the same in test matches as he is in Super but even this year's Super he's not that good. Ben Smiths firing in the Highlanders jersey and so is Aaron, so what's Fekitoa's excuse?

 

[Ospreylian]

Congrats to NZ on the series win. Well deserved, and the All Blacks have once again well and truly taught Wales a lesson or two on how to kill a game off and put a team to the slaughter.

In both games I have found myself feeling very proud of the Welsh team on the final whistle, something I haven't felt after a Wales game for quite some time. I feel like for the first time in a long time we are beginning to gradually realise our full potential, especially in attack. I don't know what it is (perhaps purely the fact we are playing against the best team in the world) but we have finally decided to actually start using our backs, in particular our back three, and offloading when the time is right and playing the riskier game more, which is fantastic to see.

It was encouraging to see that in the last 15 or so minutes of the last test, when Wales were well behind on the scoreboard, the boys didn't completely disintegrate and managed to score a couple of really great tries. In days gone by Wales would have conceded a couple of tries and then the allowed the floodgates to open, but they seem to have a different mentality these days, which is a huge step in the right direction and hopefully something they can build upon.

There are still areas that need much improvement, obviously, the primary one being the lineout. Too many times have we seen Wales get great field position on a kick to touch only to squander the opportunity by throwing a dodgy lineout or miscommunicating with the lifters. The defence also needs to sharpen up a bit.

But on the whole I have been impressed with a lot of the players this tour. Moriarty is a real find and someone who deserves to keep hold of his place, if Lydiate wants the shirt back he should have to earn it imo. Faletau is just superb and never seems to have a dud game (perhaps he is the only player in that squad who could stake a claim in a World XV). Alun Wyn just gets better and more intelligent with age. Roberts and Davies finally look like they have learnt how and when to pass, and Patchell looked sharp at times in the last test.

I can't see us winning the last test, it just takes a couple of minutes lapse in concentration for NZ to take the game away from you. But I'm sure the team will give it everything once again. Looking forward to it! Didn't think I was ever going to say that this tour, but I really am.

 

[nzlizard]

I always thought Piutau was going to be the 13 when Conrad went, you could see a couple of years ago that midfield replacement was always going to be harder than outside backs.

I wouldn't ring the changes this week but would like to see a couple.

For me it depends what they do with 10 as to the make up of the bench, Cruden will be rested, I think even if he wasn't taken off last week he would have been this week as the selectors mentioned they were going to rotate.

If they start Sopoaga, then Barrett has to be on the bench, the reserves become a halfback, Barrett and 1 more back, do you drop an inside back for McKenzie or not is the question, Ben Smith can play 12 or 13, Barrett can cover wing so it makes room for McKenzie, really depends on whether they see McKenzie playing in June or the EOYT tour.

Would be happy to see either lock swap from starting to bench to give Tuipulotu a start.

Maybe a change at 6 as well, but it means that a new starting 6 might play the whole game, although you could bring on Ardie for them.

3-4 changes is enough.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Just re fekitoa

as a highlanders fan i've seen him at his devistating best right though to average at best. I'm generally always happy to see him starting though...he hasn't done anywhere near as much line breaking over the last 2 season as he did in his first with us. Personally i believe thats because he's being marked a lot better, I've notcied (assuming the opposition has a 10 that can takle) that opposition halfback have started running a deeper defensive line...looking for fekitoa to break the first takle. This has given sopanga inside and naholo / osbourne outside just a little bit more space.

drawing those tacklers can be just as valuable as breaking the line

all that is without even talking about his attacking defence..yes its a work in progress...but when he does make "that tackle", it generally kills a move in its tracks

 

[Aotearoa_]

No offense @The_Blindside . But all I see is an Englishman trying to talk big on the internet after a bit of nice form and put the AB's down unreasonably. I can't agree with your opinions attempting to devalue a lot of our players, so it's probably best we just stop there.

 

[smartcooky]

- has Fekitoa broken the line of tier one nations at all?

Yes, v Australia, v South Africa and v Argentina in both the 2014 & 2015 RC, including two carries in the lead up to his last gasp winning try v Australia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTSypg8pO0

- has he delivered on the basis he was selected for in the first place? (INDIVIDUAL brilliance)

I doubt Steve Hansen would ever select a player purely on that basis

- was he selected for his tackling and sparking the backline?

Yes. He has delivered on the first, not so much the second, but he has had limited opportunities. Of his 15 tests only 13 have met your requirement of Tier 1, and of those, he has only started in 9, including these two against Wales.