June International Test: South Africa vs. Ireland [1st Test] (11/06/2016)

TRF_heineken

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Guys, can we please leave the politics part for the other threads, I think it unnecessarily congests the thread when we have so many threads that talks about the Quota system, transformation, the protest action etc...

Here's my take on the game:

The CJ Stander Red Card

It reminded me a bit of the Jannes Labuschagne red card a couple of years ago when he hit Johnny Wilkinson after a kick and so early in the game. In that match, we just stopped playing and went to lie down, whereas the Irish united and kept on fighting to win it. Much like the Sharks did a while back against the Crusaders in Christchurch. But before I digress, it reminded me of that incident, in the way that my father reacted to what the referee did. In both these instances he stood up from his chair, went to the fridge, grabbed a beer, and said "What's happening to Rugby and it being a contest". He was so mad that CJ got a Red Card, that he grabbed his tablet and played Candy Crush the whole game through. I feel very sorry for CJ, and also for Lambie. With the referees being over-strict with cards, we got relatively used to red cards being issued this year, especially in SR. Which is terrible for the game. I know the focus is on Player Safety, but honestly, there should be a focus on intent as well.

The Irish Team

Gutsy Gutsy Gutsy!!
I thought Heaslip overshadowed his counterpart. Your Inside Centre was great and Conor Murray's management was superb. Very well done on your first ever win on SA soil! Joe Schmidt is a great tactician and he showed again that he's one of the best coaches in world rugby.

The Springboks

F**king Pathetic!
But with saying that, I'm still optimistic. I said before the game that I have a suspicion that our team will look different at Ellis Park, and I think the changes will come as I thought. Although, with Lambie out, I fear that we will be weakened at Flyhalf with April on the bench as he was rather poor against the Saxons on Friday evening. Jaco Kriel has to play, and Duane should be benched, he was a pedestrian on Saturday. Frans Malherbe and Eben Etzebeth should wake the hell up and leave that crap at ruck time in the cape. it's unnecessary and always lead to penalties! As for our backline, Lionel Mapoe was for me the biggest disappointment. Very poor handling, very poor defending, and overall our weak link alongside JP Pietersen.

My optimism lies in that I said I wouldn't mind a loss if we show a change in the style we want to play. I could see that there was a change, even though everything went wrong, and credit to the Irish to exploit that. Every coach has a bad game, and I hope that this one was AC's. He's off to the worst start imaginable, and if we don't shape up for Saturday, his tenure could be very short-lived. Next test is at Ellis Park, at altitude in front of a sold out crowd (of which I will be one of them). I hope we turn this around and I think we will. If we make a few tweaks here and there, we could be very effective, and believe me the crowd will be behind the boys.
 

Amiga500

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2. He got touch on ball with both hands
He did?!?!?

IMO, red is a harsh. If CJ was a bit taller or shorter, then the connection wouldn't have been hip-bone to jaw, Lambie would have bounced up and play would continue, probably with a penalty for late hit on the 10.


Refereeing by consequence IMO - and not a good thing.
 

TRF_heineken

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Have watched CJ incident 100 times and while I respect people saying it was correct call I 100% disagree. My views are
1. He was in the air before kick
2. He got touch on ball with both hands
3. He didn't raise knees in a dangerous way but it was his hip that did damage due to turning in a natural way.

My bigger fear is now, and I understand it's a sensitive issue, how soft are we going to go. The game is slowly becoming too technical. Like refs are abandoning logical views to follow a script thats trying to be 1 size fits all.
Here's the video:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SVLH-od1pV8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now let's look at your points.

1. He was in the air before kick - No, CJ wasn't in the air before the kick, It was actually the no. 7 player that made a half-hearted jump before the kick was made.
2. He got touch on ball with both hands - No, his hands didn't touch the ball at all.
3. He didn't raise knees in a dangerous way but it was his hip that did damage due to turning in a natural way. - Hmm, debatable. He didn't come from the side to charge down, he came from straight ahead of Lambie, in fact, he was standing in the fly half position to defend. When he jumped, he didn't lift his arms to charge down the kick, nor kept his body wider to create less space for the ball to go through. Instead he jumped, turned in a sideways position and didn't lift his arms.

I still say the Red Card was harsh, but based on what I see, it seemed to me more that he was trying to make contact with Lambie, than to charge down the ball.
 
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munstermuffin

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Here's the video:



Now let's look at your points.

1. He was in the air before kick - No, CJ wasn't in the air before the kick, It was actually the no. 7 player that made a half-hearted jump before the kick was made.
2. He got touch on ball with both hands - No, his hands didn't touch the ball at all.
3. He didn't raise knees in a dangerous way but it was his hip that did damage due to turning in a natural way. - Hmm, debatable. He didn't come from the side to charge down, he came from straight ahead of Lambie, in fact, he was standing in the fly half position to defend. When he jumped, he didn't lift his arms to charge down the kick, nor kept his body wider to create less space for the ball to go through. Instead he jumped, turned in a sideways position and didn't lift his arms.

I still say the Red Card was harsh, but based on what I see, it seemed to me more that he was trying to make contact with Lambie, than to charge down the ball.
Views on Sky showed he got finger tips to ball and was very unlucky. And again Sky had angle that showed he'd been committed to jump before kick left Lambie boot. And he did lift his hands but again I don't think its anywhere near red
 
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TRF_heineken

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Views on Sky showed he got finger tips to ball and was very unlucky. And again Sky had angle that showed he'd been committed to jump before kick left Lambie boot. And he did lift his hands but again I don't think its anywhere near red
I would love to see that footage then. As Sky got their videos from Supersport and the above angles were the only ones that were shown on Supersport. Sky is Supersport's affiliate in UK.

BTW, the video I posted was a Sky Sports video...
 
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Cruz_del_Sur

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I agree with Amiga & H.
Video removed btw.

Here's another one


MM, of the 3 points you made 2 appear to be wrong (1 & 2).

When he jumped, he didn't lift his arms to charge down the kick, nor kept his body wider to create less space for the ball to go through. Instead he jumped, turned in a sideways position and didn't lift his arms.
Not what i see tbh. He did lift his arms but lowered them in mid air. He didn't keep his body wide (imo, course) because at that point (mid air) he knew the ball had gone past him so he turned his body to protect himself (instinctive movement if you ask me).

"What's happening to Rugby and it being a contest". He was so mad that CJ got a Red Card, that he grabbed his tablet and played Candy Crush the whole game through.
Wise man your dad.
 
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munstermuffin

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I would love to see that footage then. As Sky got their videos from Supersport and the above angles were the only ones that were shown on Supersport. Sky is Supersport's affiliate in UK.

BTW, the video I posted was a Sky Sports video...
I may be wrong but on Saturday they did seem to suggest he did get some touch be it finger tips and this is also being reported as it'll be part of Irelands defense.
In my views of video I still think he was 100% committed before ball was kicked and his take off was already there before the ball left Lambies boot. Again this will be Irelands argument.
Look it is an opinion argument but I again strongly argue if Lambie had gotten up it'd probably have been just a penalty.
 
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TRF_heineken

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I may be wrong but on Saturday they did seem to suggest he did get some touch be it finger tips and this is also being reported as it'll be part of Irelands defense.
In my views of video I still think he was 100% committed before ball was kicked and his take off was already there before the ball left Lambies boot. Again this will be Irelands argument.
Look it is an opinion argument but I again strongly argue if Lambie had gotten up it'd probably have been just a penalty.
You are wrong, and haven't provided any proof of what you are saying. I even added the SKY video which you suggested showed something else that, as it currently stands, only you have seen.

I don't disagree with you about CJ being 100% committed before Lambie kicked the ball, but again, that doesn't count for anything. As Nick Mallett stated "CJ got the timing wrong, and as the person doing the timing for the jump, the onus is on him to ensure safety for the other player".

But once again, as I've said, I still think it was only worth a yellow, and not a red.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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I will probably enjoy the game less if things like these genuinely warrant a red card (meaning i'd like to be on your side) but, no offense MM, you just went from "after watching the video 100 times he touched the ball with both hands" to "they did seem to suggest he did get some touch".
 

munstermuffin

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You are wrong, and haven't provided any proof of what you are saying. I even added the SKY video which you suggested showed something else that, as it currently stands, only you have seen.

I don't disagree with you about CJ being 100% committed before Lambie kicked the ball, but again, that doesn't count for anything. As Nick Mallett stated "CJ got the timing wrong, and as the person doing the timing for the jump, the onus is on him to ensure safety for the other player".

But once again, as I've said, I still think it was only worth a yellow, and not a red.
Well I obviously don't have evidence just basing off what I seen on Sky but it has been reported there is 8 different camera angles veing used in debate and fact a committee sat for 6 hours yesterday and couldn't agree maybe shows its not as clear cut as you say. Again if Lambie got up it'd be different story.
 

munstermuffin

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I will probably enjoy the game less if things like these genuinely warrant a red card (meaning i'd like to be on your side) but, no offense MM, you just went from "after watching the video 100 times he touched the ball with both hands" to "they did seem to suggest he did get some touch".
Yes I still state he got finger tip touch and I seem to think he did from my viewings. The "they seem to suggest" is that Irish Management seem to agree
 

TRF_heineken

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Well I obviously don't have evidence just basing off what I seen on Sky but it has been reported there is 8 different camera angles veing used in debate and fact a committee sat for 6 hours yesterday and couldn't agree maybe shows its not as clear cut as you say. Again if Lambie got up it'd be different story.
Well there's no point in dragging the point of them sitting for 5 hours into this debate without us knowing the reason behind them being busy for 5 hours and then adjourning for Monday (Today) to finalize everything. For all we know one of the members/representatives/CJ himself, were running late/were being delayed/was stuck in traffic/airport.

YOU, yourself said that you watched the over a 100 times and saw that he touched the ball. I added the video, which was exactly the same video that everyone saw on Saturday during the game, and all those angles shown on the video, was shown on the big screen for the Referee and the TMO to get to the decision.

I think the fact that Lambie stayed down, had absolutely nothing to do with the end result. in fact, play went on for nearly half a minute after contact was made where SA had the ball. You can even see that the referee only started showing advantage at the next breakdown. Which shows that he didn't see the incident when it happened, and got the call to check for foul play from either his assistants or the TMO.

While they were viewing the footage on the Screen, Lambie was still on the field. In fact, Lambie was still being attended to on the field, after the Red Card was issued. So whether he would have gotten up or not is irrelevant.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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Look at the video I posted, sec 12 till 14. Use the slow motion (hit play-pause repeatedly).

Again, i've been arguing against the red card all day, but facts are facts mate. If what you say is true then the Irish management needs to go to the ophthalmologist asap.

Here another take


Look at 1:28

Here's a pic of the relevant part

 
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munstermuffin

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As I said there is an angle I'm convinced it looked like he got hands. Been honest though I'll admit that picture does prove me wrong it seems.
Heineken the red was issued after Lambie was confirmed but regardless of if he played on I think the fact his injury looked serious at time played a part.
And I equally think if it was other way around South Africa fans would argue the exact same point. The ref got it totally wrong and his inexperience showed. Its an opinion you may not agree with but well I believe it wasn't a red card and I'd say a harsh yellow. Again like South African try for Henshaw yellow the ref refused to listen to Best over a clear offense from South Africa. My point is I thought he touched ball and an angle I seen seemed to suggest it. If I'm totally wrong fair enough but I still strongly believe it wasn't a red
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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The ref got it totally wrong and his inexperience showed.
From what i've read/seen, the overwhelming majority of refs agree a red card was the right call. The problem is not the ref. The problem is the rules.
 

jackass11

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If that had happen to sexton, then everyone who is trying to defend CJ, would be saying defo red, which it was at the time, just like if you dived into a tackle the oppostion ducked and you took his head off and then said you were committed

Its not agood enough excuse, he could quite easily have done some serious long term damage with that move, when he jumped he would have know he was jumping into a static man who couldn't defend himself, unacceptable for me
 

munstermuffin

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If that had happen to sexton, then everyone who is trying to defend CJ, would be saying defo red, which it was at the time, just like if you dived into a tackle the oppostion ducked and you took his head off and then said you were committed

Its not agood enough excuse, he could quite easily have done some serious long term damage with that move, when he jumped he would have know he was jumping into a static man who couldn't defend himself, unacceptable for me
No. Last year in the Brown/Murray incident I stated Brown was entitled to go for ball. Yes he may have been bit reckless but I don't think that true. Sexton has got fair share like that and not many complained.

You say about long term damage. There's a lot of legal tackles that can do long term damage. That's rugby.

Regardless a week ban suits Ireland as it rests CJ for last test and well Schmidt has to balance the 2nd leg smartly with altitude
 

jackass11

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Not tackles to the head, if the same impact was a shoulder tackle to the head it would have also have been a red card

Brown \ murray discusion not a good comparision

- - - Updated - - -

If you allow that type of challenge in the game with only a yellow card then you risk people jumping into everyone who is about to kick and unable to defend themselves and hoping they might not get a yellow

Thats not the type of game i want to see
 

jackass11

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Delighted to see Ireland win, great victory!
 
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