June International Tests: Argentina vs. England (2nd Test) (17/06/2017)

[BPM]

There are a handful that could squeeze in I reckon ...

Zach Mercer - if he continues to impress and develop, he's in with a shout.

Stuart Townsend - it looks like Robson and Spencer are out of favour and Townsend finished the season more strongly than Maunder IMO.

Sam Jones - we know Eddie's a fan. But for injury, he would have been capped by now I'd say. Obviously he needs to get back to fitness and form, but I wouldn't rule him out altogether.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

And who knows what might happen with Manu.

He may finally have a run of fitness and I think with MOC, Youngs and Ford he could get back to his best (I really hope so).

Would a fully fit and on form (Big ask) Manu get back into the squad IMO yes.

 

[ratsapprentice]

And who knows what might happen with Manu.

He may finally have a run of fitness and I think with MOC, Youngs and Ford he could get back to his best (I really hope so).

Would a fully fit and on form (Big ask) Manu get back into the squad IMO yes.

100%

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's literally never going to happen, though.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

There are a handful that could squeeze in I reckon ...

Zach Mercer - if he continues to impress and develop, he's in with a shout.

Stuart Townsend - it looks like Robson and Spencer are out of favour and Townsend finished the season more strongly than Maunder IMO.

Sam Jones - we know Eddie's a fan. But for injury, he would have been capped by now I'd say. Obviously he needs to get back to fitness and form, but I wouldn't rule him out altogether.

Well I'd expect so seeing as Maunder was out for the last few weeks of it

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That's literally never going to happen, though.

 

[Timbo]

I believe Joe Cokanasiga will still be eligible for the u20's next season.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hey I'm as big a Manu fan as the next guy, I love him.
I've just been burnt too many times before.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I believe Joe Cokanasiga will still be eligible for the u20's next season.

From what i gather he isn't.
I think you have to be U20 before Jan for the RWC (Can't be sure though).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Hey I'm as big a Manu fan as the next guy, I love him.
I've just been burnt too many times before.

 

[BPM]

100%

And who knows what might happen with Manu.

He may finally have a run of fitness and I think with MOC, Youngs and Ford he could get back to his best (I really hope so).

Would a fully fit and on form (Big ask) Manu get back into the squad IMO yes.

Definitely. Although we've evolved a lot since the era of Manu's best form for England.

Initially at least, I'd see him taking the role of an impact sub rather than immediately commanding a place in the team.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd have thought that the return of a fit Manu would be the end of JJ's international career as Daly's a far better bench option than JJ. Wouldn't really need a change in game plan, still a strike runner at 13, just power rather than pace.

 

[Reiser99]

Well Jones has also said he wants at least 3 players competing for each position. For me it looks like this:

1) Vunipola, Marler, Genge (Mullan could challenge, but is below Genge at the moment)
2) Hartley, George and then one of Cowan-Dickie or Taylor (I'd probably say Taylor, but it's not clear) Singleton was just making up numbers I'm afraid.
3) Cole, Sinckler, Williams (Collier similar to Mullan)
4&5) Kruis, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels and Isiekwe. (Attwood might come back after injury if he plays well)
6&7) Robshaw, Haskell, Wood(I hope not), Underhill, Wilson, Armand? (I think the Curry brothers may be given more time. Harrison and Clifford seem to have fallen off the radar. Could Kvesic find the form that once made him talked about at Exeter?)
8) Vunipola, Hughes...Beaumont or Morgan? (Jones hasn't really look at anyone outside Vunipola and Hughes)

9) Youngs, Care, Maunder...could Robson or Simpson somehow change Jones' mind?)
10&12) Ford, Farrell, Slade, Lozowski, Francis, Mallinder
13) Joseph, Te'o, Devoto I guess.
11&14) Nowell, Watson, May, Solomona, Daly, Yarde??? I hope not and Earle is now ahead of him.
15) Brown and Haley (I assume Watson or Daly might be given a chance, but no indication at all)

Realistically the issues are still the same as before the tour. 6&7, 9, 15. Next 2 seasons are going to be crucial and it will be interesting to see if anyone pushes hard for a claim over those who hold the shirt. However in the AI's I can see a back row of Robshaw, Underhill and Vunipola, unless Wood or Haskell have a fantastic start to the season or Underhill under performs.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd have thought that the return of a fit Manu would be the end of JJ's international career as Daly's a far better bench option than JJ. Wouldn't really need a change in game plan, still a strike runner at 13, just power rather than pace.

Manu needs to get an essentially uninjured season under his belt before I'd consider him again, so he does have time ahead of the RWC, and then he'd make the EPS, and possibly the 23 shirt.
If he's also worked on his defence and distribution, then he gets in the team, otherwise JJ is so only a better rugby player.
Of course, it also depends on who's taken the 12 shirt by then, which looks like Te'o; I'm which case Eddie will be wanting Manu as an alternative to Te'o rather than an alternative to JJ; and also means that Manu would be about the worst option to pair with Te'o.

Manu at 13 makes far more sense if Eddie sticks with the Ford Farrell pairing (or Lozowski or Slade). Manu would still need to have improved his defence though iMo

 

[BPM]

I agree with a lot of what Reiser99 has said there. Here's my take on the 45.

1. Marler / M. Vunipola / Genge
2. Hartley / George / Cowan-Dickie
3. Cole / Sinckler / Williams
4. Kruis / Launchbury / Isiekwe???
5. Itoje / Lawes / Ewels
6. Robshaw / Wilson / Armand
7. Haskell / Underhill / T. Curry
8. B. Vunipola / Hughes / Mercer
9. Youngs / Care / Maunder
10. Farrell / Ford
11. Daly / May / Earle
12. Te'o / Lozowski / Francis / Devoto
13. Joseph / Marchant / Tuilagi*
14. Nowell / Solomona / Yarde
15. Brown / Watson / Haley

*if he's ever fit ...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

it also depends on who's taken the 12 shirt by then, which looks like Te'o

I can't see that - Ford and Farrell will be our 10/12 for the forseeable.
With the exception of Burrell for half an hour (before being shephards crooked) in Australia has EJ ever looked like he didn't want an extra 10 at 12? I mean he played Loz and Francis there the last three games.

 

[BPM]

Manu needs to get an essentially uninjured season under his belt before I'd consider him again, so he does have time ahead of the RWC, and then he'd make the EPS, and possibly the 23 shirt.
If he's also worked on his defence and distribution, then he gets in the team, otherwise JJ is so only a better rugby player.
Of course, it also depends on who's taken the 12 shirt by then, which looks like Te'o; I'm which case Eddie will be wanting Manu as an alternative to Te'o rather than an alternative to JJ; and also means that Manu would be about the worst option to pair with Te'o.

Yep - I agree with this. In reality, it's probably a straight choice between Te'o or Tuilagi.

At his best, Manu was a world beater, but that feels like a long while ago, so the smart money is probably on Te'o.

To put it another way, one is playing his way in to the starting shirt for the Lions and the other is currently fighting to make pre-season.

Te'o has proven he's effective as a 12. Manu hasn't and as much as I hate to say it, I think Te'o is the better team player. Manu created opportunities for others mainly by being individually destructive. Te'o is a better offloader and has a reasonable pass.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I get fed up with people saying Manu doesn't pass or offload.

Do you lot forget Manu's game V NZ did all that? or most of his game with Tigers.

He was obvious told by Lancaster on whole to just run.

 

[Reiser99]

Manu at his best would have the shirt nailed down. However it's too big a risk to take him until he has a sustained period without injury.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I can't see that - Ford and Farrell will be our 10/12 for the forseeable.
With the exception of Burrell for half an hour (before being shephards crooked) in Australia has EJ ever looked like he didn't want an extra 10 at 12? I mean he played Loz and Francis there the last three games.

When he first became coach didn't he say he wants a ball carrier at 12? Him bringing in Burrell as soon as he had any kind of form and Te'o immediately making the England team says to me that EJ still wants a ball carrying 12, he just hasn't had a proper option there so has persisted with 10/12s. Now that Te'o's shown that he is quite possibly the best 12 in Britain on form I can definitely see EJ shifting Ford to the bench in favour of a ball carrier.

On another note, I've never been so upset to see one of my own players hit form as I was to see Brown last night. He's probably nailed himself into the 15 shirt until 2019.