[June Tests 2018: 1st Test] New Zealand vs. France (09/06/2018)

[ratsapprentice]

He pretty clearly intended on shouldering him in the head though, the outcome is just the cherry on top

No - he intended on tackling him, he was falling so his face got in the way.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He had eyes on when he was at that level though, it's not like he was stood up straight and then he looked away and he fell,
At the moment he threw that shoulder his face was where it would have made contact

 

[TommiG88]

He pretty clearly intended on shouldering him in the head though, the outcome is just the cherry on top

https://twitter.com/ShiplakeRugby/status/1005374783499001856

Lack of wrapping of arms too. That's a yellow at the very least.

Edit: and Mako got sin binned for touching Faf.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He had eyes on when he was at that level though, it's not like he was stood up straight and then he looked away and he fell,
At the moment he threw that shoulder his face was where it would have made contact

******** - you're judging that based on super slo-mo.

He's bent at the waist to the point where he almost certainly can't go any lower.

Lack of wrapping of arms too. That's a yellow at the very least.

Again - not true.

Both his arms are set to wrap - his right is also tensed, because... ya know... he's about to make impact with a large human being.
He doesn't complete the wrap because he has a head clash with Cane.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think it's a yellow card and a red. Cane comes in recklessly with his forearms as is second nature to him at this stage and connects to the head - that's a standard yc these days.

The prop hits a head with the shoulder and fails to wrap with the offending arm - regardless of intent or circumstance that's red in my opinion.

 

[Iron Lion Zion]

Im disgusted - the refs have given the All Blacks 3 world cups and 100 years of pure rugby dominance.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Im disgusted - the refs have given the All Blacks 3 world cups and 100 years of pure rugby dominance.

100 years of pure rugby dominance that saw them lose 5 other World Cups.

 

[TommiG88]

100 years of pure rugby dominance that saw them lose 5 other World Cups.

Think he accidentally added a zero.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Think he accidentally added a zero.

Not if you listen to the documentary they made about themselves!

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Lack of wrapping of arms too. That's a yellow at the very least.

Edit: and Mako got sin binned for touching Faf.

Yeah, but that call was bullshit and should never be used to justify anything

 

[All Black]

...He's bent at the waist to the point where he almost certainly can't go any lower...

Yeah that's how I saw it too. Ofas spine is near parallel to the ground. You aren't intending to hit anyone's head when you're down that low. If it was a dwarf, then you could say Ofa intended on driving his shoulders to the head.

For what it's worth Ofa doesnt have a history of dirty play. Canes a bit reckless but Cane does tackle with bad intentions.

 

[Zapphod]

Yellow from Cane though.

My opinion is that both incidents were yellow card worthy, Cane got off unfortunately and now we have to put up with the "Its all a conspiracy" sour grapes brigade until next week when they will find some other excuse for the All Blacks winning.

Personally I like French rugby and hopefully, we will see a much closer game when their A-Team hits the field next week and given the All Blacks are always crap in their first game of the season playing an understrength French team I don't think there is anything that can be taken from the game other than the performance of individual players.

 

[Iron Lion Zion]

100 years of pure rugby dominance that saw them lose 5 other World Cups.

I think you meant to say yes I agree they are the only team to win 3 world cups and the only team to win 2 world cups in a row and then of course the most dominant team in rugby world history.

All I was saying was the ref's gifted them all the success! I am sure you would agree. Even though sometimes it doesn't go to script and the refs will gift the British Lions a drawn series in NZ.

Cough.....Cough ...... ill just leave this here for you

https://dubiousdata.atavist.com/rugby-rankings

 

[Zootalaws]

I think you meant to say yes I agree they are the only team to win 3 world cups and the only team to win 2 world cups in a row and then of course the most dominant team in rugby world history.

All I was saying was the ref's gifted them all the success! I am sure you would agree. Even though sometimes it doesn't go to script and the refs will gift the British Lions a drawn series in NZ.

Cough.....Cough ...... ill just leave this here for you

https://dubiousdata.atavist.com/rugby-rankings

Sure. And all the kiwis playing all around the world in nearly every first tier national team make sure to get the fix in with the ref before the game. It has nothing to do with the system of rugby played from the first time a six-year-old laces a boot. It's all about the ref.

Obvious troll makes obvious schoolboy error of thinking his assertion has any merit.

 

[Zootalaws]

The ABs won because they were the better side over 80 minutes.

France only played for 30.

 

[smartcooky]

We were the better team and we won so Im glad the refs got that much right.

The head clash was IMO accidental. Sam and Ofa didn't orchestrate it, there was no malice in it. Ofa got low enough to drive his shoulders around the mid-rift and you don't expect your average players head to be down that low. He must've been upright in that split second before Ofa decided to go in, how everyone wants you to go in.

We have seen accidents red-carded, usually as carelessness, but Ofa went into the tackle the correct way and its hard to red card someone for going in correctly. Also it did happen very fast for the ref to find a red card offence in that. It looked like an accident from the outset and I hope the French winger makes a full recovery.

And if anyone bothered to listen the referee audio feed (and I did) they would have heard what he said, and then understood why he didn't award a yellow or red card.... he said that Remy Grosso was falling at the moment of contact.... he wasn't 100% right, but that was his thinking.

As to the calls for a red card, well that is just complete OTT bollocks. For a red card to be given against a tackler, they must make direct contact with the opponent's head WITH FORCE. Here is the protocol from WR

World Rugby is directing that a tougher approach be taken: This has come from evidence-based initiatives introduced in the drive to make Rugby as safe as practically possible.
High tackles – two new categories:

1. Accidental high tackle – accidental contact made to the head due to unavoidable actions of the ball carrier.

1. Reckless high tackle – deliberate contact and/or known risk of contact to the head due to actions of the tackler.

Decision making process

HAS THERE BEEN FOUL PLAY?

• 
  
• NO = play on
  
• YES = then in delivering the best decision, consider:
  • 
    
  • Where was the initial contact? Direct to the head or indirect (slipped up).
    
  • Severity: Force, Speed/Pace, swinging arm, momentum, shoulder
    
  • Accidental/Mitigating factors: 'Slipped' 'Ducked into'.

1. 
   
2. PK ONLY – Indirect contact, No force
   
3. YELLOW CARD
   1. Indirect contact, with force
   2. Direct contact, no Force
4. RED CARD – Direct contact, with force

Both the direct contact to the head AND the force must be present... i.e. a swinging arm or a shoulder charge striking the head. (e.g. SBW second test v The B&I Lions last year)

In the case of Sam Cane, its debatable whether the referee could tell (live, and at full speed) if his forearm made direct contact with Grosso's head first, or glanced off his shoulder, so he probably went with Indirect contact, No force. Cane's arm was certainly NOT swinging into the contact. The referee also claimed that Grosso was falling (Accidental/Mitigating factors). I don't think he was... IMO, if the referee had gone to the TMO, then the tackle would have been seen differently and for what it was i.e. direct contact, no Force and no Accidental/Mitigating factors; I am sure Cane would have been yellow carded.

In the case Ofa Tuungafasi, the referee was right. It wasn't a shoulder charge, so no force attributable to Tuungafasi. Grosso was marginally on his way down from the tackle, so its penalty only, which was already given against Cane anyway

As for the yellow card on Gabrillauges, that was just a really poor decision. Again, had he gone to the TMO, it would be PK only.

I also want to debunk all the utter BS about referees favouring the All Blacks. This just a load of crap; TRF is better than that, it does not need BS like this. The facts are that in this case we have an inexperienced referee who seemed a bit like a possum caught in the headlights. Trust me when I tell you that All Black fans know all about having inexperienced English referees in games against France, so I fully sympathise with French fans in this game.

However, if you want to blame anyone, blame TMO George Ayoub. He might not have been able to overturn the yellow card given to Gabrillauges (protocols should allow that, but they don't), but he sure as hell could have made a "check, check" call to alert the referee to Cane's tackle.

All this is a bit moot though. AT 52-11, a couple of bad referee decisions didn't make the difference. What made the difference was the French running out of steam against the starting players, and then the bench (who could all be starting players in their own right) coming on and putting the tiring French players to the sword.

 

[Nudger]

Double skull fracture for Grosso after the shoulder to the head,
Citing commissioner will hopefully be busy on Monday

Hartley got 12 weeks for something similar

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

And if anyone bothered to listen the referee audio feed (and I did) they would have heard what he said, and then understood why he didn't award a yellow or red card.... he said that Remy Grosso was falling at the moment of contact.... he wasn't 100% right, but that was his thinking.

As to the calls for a red card, well that is just complete OTT bollocks. For a red card to be given against a tackler, they must make direct contact with the opponent's head WITH FORCE. Here is the protocol from WR

World Rugby is directing that a tougher approach be taken: This has come from evidence-based initiatives introduced in the drive to make Rugby as safe as practically possible.
High tackles – two new categories:

1. Accidental high tackle – accidental contact made to the head due to unavoidable actions of the ball carrier.

1. Reckless high tackle – deliberate contact and/or known risk of contact to the head due to actions of the tackler.

Decision making process

HAS THERE BEEN FOUL PLAY?

• 
  
• NO = play on
  
• YES = then in delivering the best decision, consider:
  • 
    
  • Where was the initial contact? Direct to the head or indirect (slipped up).
    
  • Severity: Force, Speed/Pace, swinging arm, momentum, shoulder
    
  • Accidental/Mitigating factors: 'Slipped' 'Ducked into'.

1. 
   
2. PK ONLY – Indirect contact, No force
   
3. YELLOW CARD
   1. Indirect contact, with force
   2. Direct contact, no Force
4. RED CARD – Direct contact, with force

Both the direct contact to the head AND the force must be present... i.e. a swinging arm or a shoulder charge striking the head. (e.g. SBW second test v The B&I Lions last year)

In the case of Sam Cane, its debatable whether the referee could tell (live, and at full speed) if his forearm made direct contact with Grosso's head first, or glanced off his shoulder, so he probably went with Indirect contact, No force. Cane's arm was certainly NOT swinging into the contact. The referee also claimed that Grosso was falling (Accidental/Mitigating factors). I don't think he was... IMO, if the referee had gone to the TMO, then the tackle would have been seen differently and for what it was i.e. direct contact, no Force and no Accidental/Mitigating factors; I am sure Cane would have been yellow carded.

In the case Ofa Tuungafasi, the referee was right. It wasn't a shoulder charge, so no force attributable to Tuungafasi. Grosso was marginally on his way down from the tackle, so its penalty only, which was already given against Cane anyway

As for the yellow card on Gabrillauges, that was just a really poor decision. Again, had he gone to the TMO, it would be PK only.

I also want to debunk all the utter BS about referees favouring the All Blacks. This just a load of crap; TRF is better than that, it does not need BS like this. The facts are that in this case we have an inexperienced referee who seemed a bit like a possum caught in the headlights. Trust me when I tell you that All Black fans know all about having inexperienced English referees in games against France, so I fully sympathise with French fans in this game.

However, if you want to blame anyone, blame TMO George Ayoub. He might not have been able to overturn the yellow card given to Gabrillauges (protocols should allow that, but they don't), but he sure as hell could have made a "check, check" call to alert the referee to Cane's tackle.

All this is a bit moot though. AT 52-11, a couple of bad referee decisions didn't make the difference. What made the difference was the French running out of steam against the starting players, and then the bench (who could all be starting players in their own right) coming on and putting the tiring French players to the sword.

I think your clutching on Ofa there Smartcooky. All the rules are obviously correct but your implementation is off. Ofa clearly had a bit of force behind that tackle, it caused a double skull fracture, even then they are only there to be considered and it is at the discretion of the ref/citing commission on what penalty to give. A shoulder to the head with no wrap is well established as a red these days, he should sit the rest of the series.

Edit: https://mobile.twitter.com/TuungafasiO/status/1005615666664108032 Class act regardless.

 

[mania]

Hartley got 12 weeks for something similar

citing comms has already had a look and said nothing

 

[mania]

ofa and canes hit was accidental. unfortunate but it happens. dont blame this one blip for the loss.
ABs dominated in so many other facets of the game and produced so many positive contributions yet ppl focussed on this single moment. this is not why the french lost.
and let me say that its really rich coming from the french accusing the ABs of cheating.
i wish the ABs would cheat more, but proper cheating like bakkieBotha or dylanHartley level cheating, not the misdemeanor or accidental grey area stuff ABs keep getting accused for.
bring back richardLoe and troyFlavell.