[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein
Time: 17:00 (CAT, GMT+2)

Referee: Romain Poite
​

Teams

South Africa: TBA

England: TBA​

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Schalk Brits called up by SA!!!!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Our opponents now think we're so bad that they don't even need active players. Who next? Matfield? Pienaar perhaps?

 

[Scotty]

So as much as brown on the wing got a good try, i think give solomona a start, brown to bench, genge on the bench, shields at 6 and robshaw out, simmonds on bench for hughes. Loz to bench for francais. These are the changes id like to see. Robshaw is just not the player he was, maybe its just a dip in form but i think its his age catching up with him.

 

[unrated]

Our opponents now think we're so bad that they don't even need active players. Who next? Matfield? Pienaar perhaps?

Probably wont start, i understand the reasoning especially with Bismarck and Frans Steyn ruled out by Montpellier.

"We are busy with building experience, continuity and capacity towards the Rugby World Cup, so we want our young players rubbing shoulders with experienced players such as Duane, Vermeulen and Willie le Roux," explained Erasmus.
"I want Schalk to perform a similar role, because he has extensive inside knowledge and plenty of experience from playing for Saracens in the English and European conditions. It's a great way for our younger guys to learn the trade of international rugby from these guys." (as quoted by Sport 24)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Very smart move from Rassie,
We have a Saracens hooker and two Saracens lineout callers, so he's gonna have a massive insight into that.
He'll bring a lot of experience/advice through for the younger guys,
And also he's just a fantastic player. With the form he's in he looks like he could play for another few years at least.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

With any luck he'll have been on the beer solidly since the AP final. But he'd still be quicker than our back row.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Probably wont start, i understand the reasoning especially with Bismarck and Frans Steyn ruled out by Montpellier.

"We are busy with building experience, continuity and capacity towards the Rugby World Cup, so we want our young players rubbing shoulders with experienced players such as Duane, Vermeulen and Willie le Roux," explained Erasmus.
"I want Schalk to perform a similar role, because he has extensive inside knowledge and plenty of experience from playing for Saracens in the English and European conditions. It's a great way for our younger guys to learn the trade of international rugby from these guys." (as quoted by Sport 24)

He probably won't play this upcoming game, maybe the Cape Town game. Good move by Rassie, the insight Schalk would have on all the Saracens players, might be a very good plan from Rassie, and not just when it comes to the forwards. I'm sure Schalk would also give insight on what the Bokke can do to ruffle some feathers as I'm sure Schalk has seen most of the Sarries guys lose their temper at some point during his tenure...

 

[Nudger]

Singleton calledup

 

[McTallshort]

Singleton calledup

Is Tom Youngs completely out of the running now then?

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I think it was clear that the effects of altitude and our poor discipline were significant factors in our defeat at the weekend. However, from a selection standpoint, I think there is one glaring issue: George Ford at 10.

I say this knowing there are many in the pro-Ford camp that will point to his play on the front foot, his cut-out pass to put Jonny May down the right or other deft moments of interplay in attack during the first 20 minutes as reasons why I'm a moron, but hear me out.

Yes, his attacking play is good and he has lovely touch on his passing, however, England's other options are not significantly worse in this area, Cipriani is more or less on par and Farrell has not been far off in recent times.

Although he came onto the scene as a dangerous runner, he simply does not offer a ball-in-hand threat at all these days. Cipriani is significantly better and Farrell breaks the line far more regularly - both of these two are also much safer on the ball in the event they have to carry. Ford gets rag-dolled every time he steps and anyone gets a hand on him, he either goes backwards several yards or gets held up/returns deathly slow ball. I think SA wised up to this and started drifting better onto our midfield as the game moved on, which obviously did not help us.

His kicking out of hand is solid, but with Farrell, Slade and Daly already in the XV it adds nothing.

Now onto the real issue. Fords general physicality and technique in defense and at the breakdown is shocking. Even disregarding all of the above, I do not understand how you can have a player that loses 5-10m minimum every time the opposition runs down their channel. He tackles high every time, not sure if it's something he picked up as a junior in rugby league, but it's pointless. He's not strong enough to stop the offload anyway, so why bother trying? On the weekend almost every single SA score was preceded by momentum generated through Ford's weakness, either him directly falling off tackles / giving up yards, or the players around him pinching in because they don't trust his defence, leaving space out wide. Watch any set piece or moment in open play where he defends the 10 channel and you see Curry and Farrell both swarm to the channel around Ford. England also try and hide him on the blindside wing once phase play starts, which led to multiple occasions where he will get up from a ruck in center-field and run the opposite way to the SA attackers, to reach the safety of his wing, rather than heads up defending. Swapping Ford for a reliable presence who can contribute to all phases of the game at 10 (Farrell would be my choice) would add more to the team than any other possible change ahead of the next game on saturday, so if someone could let Eddie know that would be much appreciated.

Also, Shields for Robshaw and swap Daly and Brown back around.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm sure Schalk would also give insight on what the Bokke can do to ruffle some feathers as I'm sure Schalk has seen most of the Sarries guys lose their temper at some point during his tenure...

Considering him and Farrell had a punch up in the lions vs barbarians game, you might be on to something haha

Is Tom Youngs completely out of the running now then?

You'd hope so

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Now you've done it....

 

[MikeTheNative]

I've seen people defend Ford's tackling saying he 'never misses tackles' etc. He does miss a few but his tackle technique is to go high to slow the opposing player down until his inside centre or flanker etc. come to help him. While it's reasonably successful in bringing the ball carrier down eventually he gives up loads of yards every carry. Opposition just run at him and it's just a get over the gain line free card every time., this allows very quick ball off the next ruck and a back pedalling, scrambling England defence. You could get away with an 10 not offering much threat with the ball in hand as long as the centres do but with the choice of Farrell and Slade it's not really going to work.

 

[Gena_ZA]

England:
You need Cipriani at 10 if you want to beat the Boks, Boks hate an unpredictable flyhalf and history shows that
Shields in favor of Robshaw
Brown and Daly swapped back to have their strengths and use it effectively
No 8 and 13 needs players with more speed and "go forward"

Bokke:
I see Rassie talking about we need more experience, then bring Kriel back for Amm but get Esterhuizen on the bench
Start with Kitshoff and play PSdT at 7

Play Schalk Brits anywhere you want and on the bench

 

[Mumbles119]

England:
You need Cipriani at 10 if you want to beat the Boks, Boks hate an unpredictable flyhalf and history shows that
Shields in favor of Robshaw
Brown and Daly swapped back to have their strengths and use it effectively
No 8 and 13 needs players with more speed and "go forward"

Bokke:
I see Rassie talking about we need more experience, then bring Kriel back for Amm but get Esterhuizen on the bench
Start with Kitshoff and play PSdT at 7

Play Schalk Brits anywhere you want and on the bench

Taking your advice into account, this means the England team should look like:
1. Mako
2. LCD (speed and go forward)
3. Sinckler
4. Launchbury (go forward)
5. Iseke
6. Wilson (speed and go forward)
7. Curry
8. Shields (speed and go forward)
9. Spencer (speed)
10. Cipriani (unpredictable)
11. Solomona (speed)
12. Farrell
13. Daly (speed and go forward)
14. May
15. Woodward (go foward)

I quite like this team. I know you said 8 needed speed and go forward, but Billy and Hughes are off the pace and Simmonds is not a carrier for tight heavy duty places. Which is why I felt Shields to 8 is the only option to cover both speed and go forward.

I know you say Cipriani is unpredictable, but his defence can be similar to Ford, i.e gives up the gain line and sucks in worried teammates which just tightens defence and opens the space on the wing for the opposition. Ford never shies a tackle, but as much as I love him, Cipriani will sometimes show no interest in the tackle at all.

Daly would perfectly suit more speed and go forward at 13, but that leaves us very bare in the back three, especially if we don't want Brown on the wing again. So I would probably leave Daly at 15, and try Lowzoski at 13 and hope he improves his defensive positioning.

 

[ncurd]

Man I wish our problems defensively were all Ford's fault....

 

[Mumbles119]

Man I wish our problems defensively were all Ford's fault....

Agree, it would be an easy solution and fit the fallacy that Ford can't defend/tackle. We all know he can, and I personally think Ford at 10 brings so so much for England. I'm a devoted Wasps fan, and quite a fan of Cipriani, but want Ford over Cips or Farrell in the next test.
My team above was an experiment to fuflfil the feedback requests from Gena.
I think the defence issues are myriad. Different levels of player pace, different levels of player commitment, a defensive pattern I feel is too passive, breakdown inferiority, players out of true position etc etc

 

[fattyforward]

Ford us a bit of a liability defensively but who to replace him with. Cipriani is so talented but can be a bit of a flake. Farrell on paper could be the man ... but I can't remember a really good performance from England with Farrell at 10. There have been a number with Ford.

So that leaves Skate or Lozowski

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Ford us a bit of a liability defensively but who to replace him with. Cipriani is so talented but can be a bit of a flake. Farrell on paper could be the man ... but I can't remember a really good performance from England with Farrell at 10. There have been a number with Ford.

So that leaves Skate or Lozowski

And Francis I think?

Get Smith on a plane...