[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[Pom in Exile]

I agree occasionally has a moment but then do all.
As long as its not Clancy I'm not fussed by refs.
Teams lose or win for many other reasons than a ref.
Generally not adapting to his style.

For me, it wasn't a style thing on Saturday, the ref just reffed both teams differently, pretty hard to adapt to that tbf. I do think England's reputation at the breakdown is preceding them somewhat, which isn't right, but is par for the course.

 

[Pom in Exile]

I'm not trying to bash Ford, I don't think he's a coward and if anything I respect the fact that he stands up to the big men who constantly target him. All I'm saying is that no truly complete team has had such an obvious defensive weakness at 10. Every world cup winner in the professional era has had a 10 that is at least decent in defense (even Larkham scrapes in to that category).

Ford is a good attacking fly-half and, if Farrell has to play 12, then he is the current best option at 10. That said, I firmly believe we would be better off moving Farrell to 10 and benefiting from his better defense + game management to compliment his underrated attacking play (look at the points scored by Saracens and particularly their wingers towards the end of the season). Then we can give a chance at 12 to Loz or Francis or Slade and longer term find a midfield that works with our best player at 10!

No great team that I can think of has had a fly-half that plays second fiddle to their 12 in almost every important characteristic of the position; game/momentum management, directing the forwards in phase play, kicking out of hand and off the tee and general leadership across the pitch. Ford is a mercurial talent in some aspects of the game, but I simply cannot imagine England being the best team in the world with him in the most important position.

I'm a Ford fan, or I certainly used to be, however my main issue with him isn't actually his defence, which is poor, it's his lack of game management and the fact that he no longer offers any sort of running threat at all. When he was coming through the ranks, I thought he was going to become world class but he just hasn't developed in the way one hoped, this may have something to do with his physical stature which is definitely an impediment when it comes to defence, however I'm not sure why it should impact on his game management or running.
I truly wish Ford was the player that he looked like becoming, but it just hasn't happened unfortunately, however Eddie's not changing course now so we've just got to get behind him and wish him well (as his confidence appears very fragile).

 

[Pom in Exile]

And I'm sure it would be completely different with Ford at 10 behind that incredible Saracens pack.

Let's be honest, England aren't playing Ford and Farrell together because they're just so good we need to get them both in, it's because they have substantial weaknesses that need to be covered by the other. Maybe what we're waiting for is a complete 10 to come through the ranks rather than a centre that allows Faz to play 10.

I'll never understand why so many people complain about Ford looking weak behind a pack going backwards. So does basically every half back, and if the pack is going backwards England are going to lose the match anyway, even if the 10 was a perfectly crafted genetic hybrid of Wilko and Carter.

Worth bearing in mind that Farrell played at IC for the Lions too, not sure that he was covering for any perceived weaknesses of Sexton's.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Poite is a good ref, one of the best.

He might certainly be one of the best. But history is against him when South Africa play. I can't think of a single match in the past few years where he was involved in our games where he didn't mess up.

And you guys seem to forget the whole controversy last year during the British and Irish Lions tour in NZ.

 

[SomeOke]

"The two men [Coetzee and Erasmus] are both dynamic people,' Proudfoot responded when asked about the differences from one tenure to another. 'Rassie is a master tactician, who leaves nothing to chance, and so it's also been a learning experience for me. Allister had a different focus, it was also a good focus, and he's a very good man."

 

[TRF_heineken]

"The two men [Coetzee and Erasmus] are both dynamic people,' Proudfoot responded when asked about the differences from one tenure to another. 'Rassie is a master tactician, who leaves nothing to chance, and so it's also been a learning experience for me. Allister had a different focus, it was also a good focus, and he's a very good man."

Haha. trying to be very diplomatic, but also turning the blade into AC's backside while saying it...

 

[SomeOke]

Haha. trying to be very diplomatic, but also turning the blade into AC's backside while saying it...

Haha yeah I don't think he intentionally think he was throwing AC under the bus but that is how it comes across.

"Hey mate, was the girl you slept with hot?"
"Er, great personality!"

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm a Ford fan, or I certainly used to be, however my main issue with him isn't actually his defence, which is poor, it's his lack of game management and the fact that he no longer offers any sort of running threat at all. When he was coming through the ranks, I thought he was going to become world class but he just hasn't developed in the way one hoped, this may have something to do with his physical stature which is definitely an impediment when it comes to defence, however I'm not sure why it should impact on his game management or running.
I truly wish Ford was the player that he looked like becoming, but it just hasn't happened unfortunately, however Eddie's not changing course now so we've just got to get behind him and wish him well (as his confidence appears very fragile).

I wouldn't say that his game management is poor, but I certainly agree that he doesn't threaten ball-in-hand anymore; but I think that is mostly down to his support.
He's a small guy, and nothing's likely to change that, I think he's happy taking the ball up himself but only if he's got backup, put a Tuilagi, Eastmond or Curry on his shoulder (ideally a genuine IC AND a genuine 7, but that seems like wishing for unicorns - England or Leicester) to interest the tackler, give him the option of the pop pass and the backup if he's scragged, and I think he'd do it again. Faz doesn't give him that security, whilst someone like Robshaw can't keep up, and neither particularly interest the defence in his own right.

Throw Ford at a tackler on his own, and he's getting rag-dolled and turned over; so he's right not to try.
Put a distraction/backup on his shoulder and he seems much happier to try.

I am still a Ford fan, but I don't deny that he's off-form; but mitigate against that that he's not being helped by his team-mates. Even off-form he's still simply better at playing rugby than Farrell, even with the latter's continued and impressive improvement; and no more compromised an option than Cip.s

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I wouldn't say that his game management is poor, but I certainly agree that he doesn't threaten ball-in-hand anymore; but I think that is mostly down to his support.
He's a small guy, and nothing's likely to change that, I think he's happy taking the ball up himself but only if he's got backup, put a Tuilagi, Eastmond or Curry on his shoulder (ideally a genuine IC AND a genuine 7, but that seems like wishing for unicorns - England or Leicester) to interest the tackler, give him the option of the pop pass and the backup if he's scragged, and I think he'd do it again. Faz doesn't give him that security, whilst someone like Robshaw can't keep up, and neither particularly interest the defence in his own right.

Throw Ford at a tackler on his own, and he's getting rag-dolled and turned over; so he's right not to try.
Put a distraction/backup on his shoulder and he seems much happier to try.

I am still a Ford fan, but I don't deny that he's off-form; but mitigate against that that he's not being helped by his team-mates. Even off-form he's still simply better at playing rugby than Farrell, even with the latter's continued and impressive improvement; and no more compromised an option than Cip.s

It's a team game. By that logic if those picked around him neuter his effectiveness,what's the point in playing him?

Simply better at rugby than Farrell? Agreed, except for the small matters of defence, goal kicking and temperament. Faz is the more complete, if less inspired, package.

I wouldn't play Cips at all due to his turnstile defence - worse than Ford's in my book. But he's still the one I'd back most to pull an attacking rabbit out of a hat.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Haha yeah I don't think he intentionally think he was throwing AC under the bus but that is how it comes across.

"Hey mate, was the girl you slept with hot?"
"Er, great personality!"

mooi gebou maar kak gepleister

 

[Which Tyler]

It's a team game. By that logic if those picked around him neuter his effectiveness,what's the point in playing him?

Simply better at rugby than Farrell? Agreed, except for the small matters of defence, goal kicking and temperament. Faz is the more complete, if less inspired, package.

I wouldn't play Cips at all due to his turnstile defence - worse than Ford's in my book. But he's still the one I'd back most to pull an attacking rabbit out of a hat.

Because a neutred ford is still better than the alternatives, especially considering the team as a whole and that fact that Fax is the best IC available.
"It's a team game" is THAT why we don't want a real IC or a real OSF? I thought it was a lack of alternatives.
Faz really isn't better in defence (unless you tailor the entire defence around so Faz's indiscipline to make it a virtue instead of a hindrance - in which case... Team game and all that).
At goal kicking there's nothing in it for quality (IIRC Ford has marginally the better record), but for temperament - that's a double enpdged sword. On kicking temperament, then Faz wins that at the top level, on discipline, then Ford does even more comfortably (please, don't buy that "Iceman" label, "Petulant oik" is way more appropriate). Neither ever willingly takes a step back.

Faz is the more complete package if tackling trumps passing; possibly also if kicking from the tee simultaneously trumps vision and kicking from hand.

Give us a realistic specialist at IC, and form would put Faz ahead of Ford. Mind you, give us a realistic specialist at IC, and I'd back Ford's form to turn on a sixpence.



As has been said before though; I'd rather not get into discussions about FH until we've got hooker, 2 flankers, SH, IC, FB, conditioning and tactics all sorted. As it is, we've 3 options at FH who are all better than the incumbents in those 5 positions, and the alternatives in the 6th

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Anyone thinking Cipriani's defence is worse than Ford's haven't watched enough wasps in the last 18 months. He's a lot better and really does get stuck in.
Yes he misses tackles, but even Farrell can miss quite a few. And Cipriani may miss the odd tackle but doesn't customarily give up 10 metres in every 'successful' contact like Ford does.
Before the 'one-eyed' charge is levelled at me, I'm not saying that at this point Cipriani should be the first name on the team sheet - but to discount him on the basis of his defence just doesn't hold water right now.

 

[ncurd]

I discount him mainly on age TBH if we considered him for anything other than injury cover he should of been involved in the setup long before now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anyone thinking Cipriani's defence is worse than Ford's haven't watched enough wasps in the last 18 months. He's a lot better and really does get stuck in.
Yes he misses tackles, but even Farrell can miss quite a few. And Cipriani may miss the odd tackle but doesn't customarily give up 10 metres in every 'successful' contact like Ford does.
Before the 'one-eyed' charge is levelled at me, I'm not saying that at this point Cipriani should be the first name on the team sheet - but to discount him on the basis of his defence just doesn't hold water right now.

Cipriani's defence hasn't been an issue since his first season at Sale.
Think on the whole it's probably a little worse than Fords (Fords commitment > Cips) but Danny is much stronger tackler.
I'd start him over Ford tbh

 

[ratsapprentice]

Why are we even talking about changing something that wasn't a major problem in that game?

This happens every time... it's a reflex action. Ford was not responsible for giving away 12 penalties, he wasn't responsible for not properly clearing Vermeulen from the ruck, and he wasn't responsible for our over-narrow defence. He was however, responsible for a large amount of what we did very well.

Sort out the discipline, defensive shape and clearing Vermeulen, and that game is won comfortably.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Why are we even talking about changing something that wasn't a major problem in that game?

This happens every time... it's a reflex action. Ford was not responsible for giving away 12 penalties, he wasn't responsible for not properly clearing Vermeulen from the ruck, and he wasn't responsible for our over-narrow defence. He was however, responsible for a large amount of what we did very well.

Sort out the discipline, defensive shape and clearing Vermeulen, and that game is won comfortably.

To be honest, I'm not sure how people got to talking about Ford, for me I agree it's not the biggest issue we have, but if we're talking about it let's not make up reasons to not play a guy when the other options have, I would argue, bigger issues
I totally agree with your assessment and it's not the #1 - but why shouldn't we try and sort out all our issues!?

 

[ratsapprentice]

You can discuss them, and plan for changing them in the future.

But realistically - it's better to make incremental changes than trying to fix everything at once.
Change one or two thing per game. It's much easier to judge their success when that happens.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

but for temperament - that's a double enpdged sword. On kicking temperament, then Faz wins that at the top level, on discipline, then Ford does even more comfortably (please, don't buy that "Iceman" label, "Petulant oik" is way more appropriate). Neither ever willingly takes a step back.

My take is that when Ford screws up his head can go down, often for extended periods. When Faz screws up, which he does, it just provokes him into action. Sometimes rash, sometimes petulant but he's always up for the fight. That body language and attitude counts for a lot - it's a big reason why Hartley was captain and Brown's still in the team. It's the reason why Johnson is revered - not for whacking people, but for his mental toughness and a total refusal to take a backward step, an attitude that spread across his side. There's not enough of it in the current team and as Cockers said about Genge it's better to have to pull someone out of the fight than push them in to it.

Of course you're right that there are far more pressing concerns especially up front.

 

[TRF_heineken]

My take is that when Ford screws up his head can go down, often for extended periods. When Faz screws up, which he does, it just provokes him into action. Sometimes rash, sometimes petulant but he's always up for the fight. That body language and attitude counts for a lot - it's a big reason why Hartley was captain and Brown's still in the team. It's the reason why Johnson is revered - not for whacking people, but for his mental toughness and a total refusal to take a backward step, an attitude that spread across his side. There's not enough of it in the current team and as Cockers said about Genge it's better to have to pull someone out of the fight than push them in to it.

Of course you're right that there are far more pressing concerns especially up front.

By that logic. Is it then understandable why Cips is the 3rd preferred FH in the team? Is Ford's mental toughness better than Cips? Cips had a few brainfarts when he played for the Rebels, so I've seen how he crumbles before.

 

[Nudger]

Launchbury is fit