[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] South Africa vs. England (23/06/2018)

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by TRF_heineken, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. All Black

    All Black Bench Player

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2018
    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    New Zealand

    There goes the England Ive been hearing about.

    Jonny May is probably the best winger in world rugby right now.
     
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. duncanb

    duncanb Academy Player

    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Messages:
    242
    Location:
    Northants
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Northampton

    Not far off has faults in defence but attack wise you are 100% correct.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    3,762
    Location:
    Tavistock, Devon
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    Is that even that true anymore? It certainly used to be but now I'd say he's pretty good; quite possibly our best winger defensively (Nowell's tackling's outstanding but he just doesn't have the pace at times). He's only missed 1 tackle this tour if that stats are to be believed.
     
  5. spartan32

    spartan32 Academy Player

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    390
    Well done England. Good to see Robshaw make a decent comeback. For me he’s a great example of a true gentleman player and an excellent ambassador for the sport and the England setup.

    Cips back and does what he does best. Uses his excellent vision to change the entire face of a game in one perfectly executed piece of skill. This lad needs more starts and chances to prove he is the no. 1 10 in English rugby.

    Penalty count dropped, much better game management, simple rugby played, and still plenty to improve on but a win none the less. All much more encouraging.

    Stand out players for me this series

    Curry. Wasn’t sure at first but the lad gets a lot done and still so young. Bags of potential right there

    May. Just keeps getting better and better.

    We clearly have an issue at 9. Young’s poses almost no threat and other options need to be considered and quickly.

    I think we need at least one heavy ball carrier in the centres. Let’s hope Teo gets back for the AIs

    Our pack need to sort themselves out. Well off the pace for much of this series. Maybe down to various absences but needs sorting.

    Think there is still hope. We just need to be more consistent and improve our D. Line speed not great and first up tackles not too hot either. We all know the breakdown needs sorting.

    Happy to end the series with a win. Well done SA good to see you getting back on track. I’ll look forward to our boys smashing you at HQ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,643
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    That game we won but still had the same issue when they attacked fast we had little answer in defence but the conditions didnt allow it, im worried the AB will rib our defence apart, cips got stuck in defencibly but got bumped off a couple of times and went high( like ford but not as well) conditions alowed and he would have added a spark to our attack, but i am still worried.

    We deserved the win as we played the conditions better but dry pitch and it would have been alot tighter.

    9 youngs was so slow constantly. We had spencer on the bench to speed it up, we had LCD as george wasnt exactly smashing it and simmonds who would have stopped robshaw being at 8 but non were used, yes we won but didnt learn as much as we would have liked.

    Mako first choice but needs a bloody good rest to get back to his best and imo genge needs a decent shot off the bench, we know what marler can do.

    Going on these are the finishers id like to see as we decided not to use any today

    George sinkler genge. Is great impact front row,
    Lawes to come back on the bench(or iseikwe)
    Simmonds adds something different
    Spencer. I like off the bench but god knows about first choice
    Loz for me brings alot
    Nowell to make impact. With may daly brown starting.

    Gone for the bench id like to see after this series,
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  7. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    11,857
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    I'm not sure Mako is first choice in my mind. Marler's long been underrated - people don't seem to notice how hard hitting he is in defence. I think this is partly because he's normally tackling guys who are at least the same size as him - so there aren't too many scrum half demolitions. His scrummaging might not be world class, but it's very strong.
    Before the tour I had been thinking that Mako's handling was too important not to have from the start, and Marler's penalty count was not great. But Mako wasn't really brought to bear in that regard, and his discipline was shot.

    I'm really frustrated we didn't get to see Genge, because he's potentially a very good scrummager as well as tight/loose carrier. He's a little scatty (which I think is in part down to his dyspraxia), but he's fairly well rounded.
    I think Genge getting game time should be a priority in the Autumn. Because if he's able to be a scrummaging weapon, then he could be a viable starter.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,643
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    Mako has looked tired and over worked for ages now he needs a good rest and i think mako on form vs marler in form, mako wins imo, scrummageing has improved, strong carrier and tackler but just offersmore with his offloading and a stronger carrier especially if the game opens up but thats just my opinion.

    Couldnt agree more on genge,(dyspraxia is a bitch ive got it too, although im crap at rugby anyway lol) his ability to step in contact to change the point of attack, it makes them few eextra meters and puts us on the front foot but needs game time to prove himself at this level,

    On a side point sinkler upped his workrate this week and had a pretty good game.
     
  9. ratsapprentice

    ratsapprentice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    11,857
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    England

    You say his scrummaging has improved, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33,661
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    Surprised to see so many people say drop sinckler, thought he went well yesterday and most of our scrum pens were him vs beast.
    Think marler/sinck should be our first choice props atm
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. ragerancher

    ragerancher First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    4,668
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Bath

    Add others have said, our weakness is we can't handle it when the game speeds up and this game has papered over that mauve crack.

    I'd also love to see genge play, he doesn't just run into contact but tries to hit the shoulder instead. Really all players should do that but most try to bulldoze their way through a player. I also think Williams would be a better starter with sink on the bench. Jones must try some other 9s, if for no other reason than having cover for injury
     
  12. Durbanite

    Durbanite Academy Player

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2015
    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    Natal
    Country Flag:

    South Africa

    Club or Nation:

    Sharks

    England simply had much better game management and the wet nullified a lot of our power, I think we gained a lot of insight into the team and fringe players. I do think we would've struggled less in the dry, and the infringements wouldn't have helped England out as much, but our wet weather play was shoddy and it was fairly obvious we weren't really playing the conditions, which was a mistake.

    Talking points
    Got to say a large part of the problem of Saturdays game, not to say Ralepelle had a shocker but he gave away 3 easy points and imo shouldn't have really been involved in the starting team in first place. That being said he performed his duties better then I had expected he would. As for Jaintjies, he might've had better luck coming off the bench but he cracks under pressure and what game of footy is devoid of pressure? Ultimately he's played himself out of selection, even with Rassie saying he'll play him in the future imo. It's a pity but with all the chances he's had his failings are getting a little bit stale.

    Gotta love Faf, but when things aren't working for him the game gets tough for his team, I love his speed and attitude but you can't score or set up a score every time you touch the ball, think he would do well to learn when the game needs to slow down a bit and just get through some steady phases rather than going nuts with a dart or rocketing passes at guys who aren't necessarily ready to receive them or are sucking lungfulls. Still miles ahead of the next 9 and wouldn't trade him for any other tbh. A pity we didn't get to see much of Papier as seems to be the case with most 9s we put on the bench.

    Kriel is a good player, he can really be dangerous on attack and I love the way he twists through tackles but the guy needs to learn to 1. Stop running laterally, run straight. 2. Again, stop running towards touch and cutting out all the space out wide, he doesn't do it nearly as badly as he used to but it's still an issue. 3. He needs to learn when to hold and when to delay a pass. 4. When in a 2 on 1 situation, attack the defenders inside so he doesn't drift to the outside man once you've completed your pass, or better yet run straight at him and offload.

    Esterhuizen I'm sad to say had a very dodgy performance, I thought being a Sharkie would've helped him adjust to the wet. He missed tackles, threw stray passes and just wasn't his usual best. That being said he's STILL the best 12 we've got imo, he's got huge power, deft hands and a great ability to interpret the opposition and put others in gaps, especially after he busts the line. One of the many reasons I prefer him over DDA is his huge left boot, which the boks didn't use once. I really hope Rassie hasn't soured toward him and gives him another go.

    Gelant is always fun to watch, I think we can mold him into a real general if we're careful. He was solid under the high ball and the grubber that gave us the try was superb vision. He just needs to learn to be a little bit more patient and there's no problem in my mind of playing him and le Roux interchangeably at 15 for the foreseeable future, especially seeing as if we have him on the bench we can end up with cover for 15, wing and perhaps even centre as well as yet another capable boot in the backline.

    Considering all that, I am very pleased. We won the Series and got to give our fringe players a go, we learned a lot about our wet weather capabilities (mainly that we have a lot of work to do) and things are still very much looking up for Erasmus's boks. Can't wait for TRC, it's a pity Duane is out but I'm fairly optimistic about our chances this year and have a heap more faith in Rassie and the pack compared to AC, time will tell
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Openside7

    Openside7 Academy Player

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2018
    Messages:
    12
    This tour did help clarify a few issues with regard to the England team and, indeed, English rugby. Plainly we struggle to match the pace that southern hemisphere teams play at, our set piece is also underpowered and, against well organised and physical defences, we struggle to get over the gain line and our defence appears to lack organisation and physicality. I am unwilling to read too much into Saturday's victory, despite the fact that it is welcome, because the South African team was quite experimental and many of those selections did not pay off. Also the weather put England into a position of comfort, enabling them slow the game right down. There appears to be too much attention being paid by many observers to particular selections for the England team - the Ford v Ciprianni debate be a case in point, and not enough attention being paid to the bigger picture. Unless Jones and whoever else employs as his assistant coaches get to grips with living with the pace of southern hemisphere teams (and Ireland's), organize a team that can at least control their own ball in the set piece and dominate the gain line in both attack and defence, we will always come a poor second. I frankly fear the drubbing that New Zealand might dish out in the Autumn series the way things are at the moment.
    Obviously, much of achieving these goals does depend on selecting the right players, so does putting into place a coaching regime that lifts standards to meeting these aims - one that must break out of the rather insular standards of the English premier league. Having said all this, I am glad that Jones seems to have finally accepted the need for genuine open side. Long overdue!
     
  14. higgik

    higgik Academy Player

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    219
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Saracens

    Like to see Faz, Te’o, Loz. Think this combination would be better suited to getting the wings and Fb into play as playmakers are split.
     
  15. Fuzzy Dunlop

    Fuzzy Dunlop Academy Player

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    124
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Leicester

    I was just listing the centres rather than explicitly stating IC or OC as the positioning will undoubtedly vary based on attack/defence, set-piece/turnover/open play and whether the ruck is central or out wide.

    Sometimes you want playmaker -> bosh/dummy runner -> playmaker and sometimes you want playmaker -> playmaker -> bosh. Honestly the distinction between 12 and 13 matters less to me than 11 and 14.
     
  16. higgik

    higgik Academy Player

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    219
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Saracens

    Agree you need mix, including wings and FB. These 3 need to be able to see running lines early, but also be able to truck it up in traffic to take load off others.
     
  17. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    10,298
    Location:
    Polokwane, South Africa
    Country Flag:

    South Africa

    Club or Nation:

    South Africa

    Yes he was. He was dreadful! I think Rassie wanted to give him a chance to prove himself, and he basically threw it away. Between him and Chilliboy, I can't decide who was the poorest.

    Chilliboy was the direct result of 5 of our penalties, 3 of which was converted into points.

    Must have been nice for England to play away from home, but have home weather and conitions. Man that slip was probably one of the highlights of the day for me:



    But the best part was Faf smashing that big guy back like a sack of potatoes.

    And by the way... Faf is a master of the universe:

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Xsypher

    Xsypher Academy Player

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    215
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Saracens

    So you wouldn't have Watson in the 23?
     
  19. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2,544
    Country Flag:

    England

    He was better, but was v ordinary in the first two when it counted. Jury’s still right out.

    TH is a tough one. Cole is the best scrummager so that really ought to be the end of the argument, but it isn’t.

    Really interested to see what Dai Young can do with Brookes. And is Hill staying with Saints?
     
  20. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,643
    Club or Nation:

    Exeter

    Sorry my bad, i thought i put:
    11 may 14 watson* 15 daly 23 nowell

    or 23 brown to start with.
     
  21. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    33,661
    Location:
    Lichfield(ish), UK
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Sale

    I'd question whether Cole is the best scrummager to be honest. See how he is after the summer off, theoretically he is but he's been poor lately.
    Agree that sinck had average at best initial 2 games, but the combo of him and marler was excellent so I'd keep it going forwards into the AIs
     
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page