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Lancaster = Martin Johnson

Don't Skip Leg Day

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So I was thinking about how Lancaster is going and I came up with the following:

Good solid pack
Not settled half backs
No 1st choice centre pair
Attacking back play still missing
Won a few but nothing major

Then I remembered how I felt going Into the last World Cup with Martin Johnson and we actually had all the same things as above!

So really have we improved or have we just gone sideways? The problems we have now are exactly the same as we had under Martin Johnson.

So should Lancaster be fired?
 
Fired? Definitely a no on my part.

Vastly improved? maybe not, but I think our performances have become A: consistent and B: got much better.

I think our halfbacks are settled; care & farrell, they just had a bad game on Saturday - they seldom have two shockers in a row, so lets see how it pans out there before we hang them out to dry - yes i know peopel prefer Ford, but clearly the game plan is to build around Care and Farrell. We also have depth - Rod, Burns, Myler, Cip's, Slade.

Centres, I think we've got good centres, just the 1st & 2nd choice 13's (Tuilagi & Burrell) are injured, he then have 3 good to excellent 12's in Eastmond, Barritt and 36 (when he's on form.

Attacking play is slightly different and again i think that comes from the English inability to generate quick go forward ball.

I think we've made good progress over the last 18-24 months, i don't think we should be throwing the baby out with the bath water, and lets not forget SCW didn't win anything until 2003 the year they won the world cup.
 
So I was thinking about how Lancaster is going and I came up with the following:

Good solid pack
Not settled half backs
No 1st choice centre pair
Attacking back play still missing
Won a few but nothing major

Then I remembered how I felt going Into the last World Cup with Martin Johnson and we actually had all the same things as above!

So really have we improved or have we just gone sideways? The problems we have now are exactly the same as we had under Martin Johnson.

So should Lancaster be fired?

Well, I'm a total outsider on this matter, but one thing is for sure that Lancaster has a much better Rapport than Johnson had as coach.

I like Lancaster, he's assertive, and most times makes the tough decisions. Why fire him? England and SA are the only 2 teams to have beaten the All Blacks in the last 18 months, and that takes some doing.

I say keep him, injuries to players are just one of those things the coach can't control, and he has to make due with what he's got.
 
Well, I'm a total outsider on this matter, but one thing is for sure that Lancaster has a much better Rapport than Johnson had as coach.

I like Lancaster, he's assertive, and most times makes the tough decisions. Why fire him? England and SA are the only 2 teams to have beaten the All Blacks in the last 18 months, and that takes some doing.

I say keep him, injuries to players are just one of those things the coach can't control, and he has to make due with what he's got.

Well, 24 months...they beat us November 2012 ;).

Personally I have never been a huge fan or Lancaster. I would argue it seems England are consistently coming closer to New Zealand since he has taken over, but I also think as a coach he lacks any sort of creativity or consistency. He'll stick with a handful of players regardless of how they perform, and yet he'll make erratic changes on players who have looked promising. I think getting a coach who could run a backline would hugely benefit England. Alex King seems to be who people are shouting for as a backs coach, however they promoted Mike Catt to attacking skills coach after some good work at the Aviva Premiership, and I'm not sure I've really seen the dividends. I think England could have really, really benefited from someone like Vern Cotter or Schmidt - coaches who can run a back-line extremely well. England will always have a strong forward pack, but Lancaster could set up a training drill with brick walls set up on the field, and he'd still instruct his players to crash into them over passing into space.
 
I think he's one of the better coaches you've had in awhile. Personally I didn't feel there was anything to fear from England when Andy Robinson was coach (New Zealand did well with him at the helm), and we know Martin Johnson didn't cut it. From an outsiders point of view, and not saying this is all Lancaster's doing, but I feel England's defence is harder to breach. I guess the ABs did get a few soft ones on the weekend, but generally speaking. Also when I think of who the North's biggest threat is, well, other than Ireland who are getting better and better, it'd have to be you guys easily. Statistics will say he's been a bit shakey against Southern Hemisphere sides, but the stats don't tell you that they stunned New Zealand in 2012, and have ran them bloody close ever since. Beating England isn't exactly a stroll like it was a few years back.

I think as a coach he'll get better and better. I think the old revolving door of "lose a world and you can beat it" is something from last decade. Henry produced our worst World Cup result, but he also won us the thing. I also wouldn't chuck him out unless there is someone(s) who are overwhelming better, not just 'quite handy to have'.
 
You can't fire him 12 months from a world cup. No one could come in and in 12 months make us better than NZ.
 
If we're going to talk about a clinch whose like Johnson then it has to be Farrell...

I agree Lancaster can be a bit safe at times, but I honestly believe he wants to build some attacking flair into the side. The problem is he's an ex back row and while he is fairly knowledgable about rugby, he needs the help of a specialist backs coach to fulfil that goal. Andy Farrell is a defense coach, raised above his station. Here in lies out issue.
 
Well, 24 months...they beat us November 2012 ;).

Personally I have never been a huge fan or Lancaster. I would argue it seems England are consistently coming closer to New Zealand since he has taken over, but I also think as a coach he lacks any sort of creativity or consistency. He'll stick with a handful of players regardless of how they perform, and yet he'll make erratic changes on players who have looked promising. I think getting a coach who could run a backline would hugely benefit England. Alex King seems to be who people are shouting for as a backs coach, however they promoted Mike Catt to attacking skills coach after some good work at the Aviva Premiership, and I'm not sure I've really seen the dividends. I think England could have really, really benefited from someone like Vern Cotter or Schmidt - coaches who can run a back-line extremely well. England will always have a strong forward pack, but Lancaster could set up a training drill with brick walls set up on the field, and he'd still instruct his players to crash into them over passing into space.

Lets not get things twisted, New Zealand hardly threw the ball around with abandon last weekend, and The English Saxons under Lancaster and Farrell played a massively expansive game plan, in the last 12-18 months England have played expansive rugby, look at the 6nations and the win in Argentina, but have just struggled to do so against the top 3 when their pack meets a similarly dominant forward pack or a backrow forward who can kill their ball.

The issue is two things: Speed of ball when pack is not totally dominant, and decision making on ball.

England are clearly going out with a game plan to specific to the game & teams they are playing - hence we saw them tighten up so as not to give NZ turnover ball. They will probably move it more against Aus and SA, and i wouldn't be surprised if the Fiji game is a try fest. Come the 6nations they will play wider, and when we hit the world cup they will adapt their game plan to whatever confronts them.
 
So I was thinking about how Lancaster is going and I came up with the following:

Good solid pack
Not settled half backs
No 1st choice centre pair
Attacking back play still missing
Won a few but nothing major

Then I remembered how I felt going Into the last World Cup with Martin Johnson and we actually had all the same things as above!

So really have we improved or have we just gone sideways? The problems we have now are exactly the same as we had under Martin Johnson.

So should Lancaster be fired?

I hear you but I'm in two minds. When you put it like that, I agree, in terms of core strengths and competencies how much have we moved it on?

Good solid pack - I would argue we have a really excellent pack, actually. Question mark over Wood. We've brought in Laucnhbury, now Kruis, brought back Attwood, Vunipola, Morgan, Robshaw, Mako, Webber. Definite strengthening there.

Not settled half backs - Disagree, I think we have a settled first choice pairing in Farrell and Care, neither of whom had great games last week. We know our pecking order. The issue is the coaches perseverance with Ben Youngs, and the lack of any genuine faith shown in any 10 other than Fazlet. Or at least, faith shown in the werong 10s; Burns over Cipriani was hugely iniquitous imo.

No 1st choice centre pair - Agree. Having said this, Lancaster has more, and better, options than Johnson ever has and arguably therefore a harder job!

Attacking back play still missing - Not missing by any means, a forward-back linkage is often excellent, 1-15 our players are more confident and capable of slinging it around. The issue which, I would agree we have, is in structured, phase attacks. We desperately need a backs expert to join the team.

Won a few but nothing major - For me, the Triple Crown was extremely satisfying to win. Sure, that's hardly a raise on Johnsons six nations victory but we actually won the same number of games last six nations as we did when we won in 2011.


Overall I agree that on paper in terms of achievements, and looking at win ratio under Lancaster, we haven't moved on, but I think that disguises some very real improvements.

Jury's out whether lancaster will be the man to turn a 'top 5 side' into a 'top 2' side.
In my opinion, you cannot emphasise enough how important these next 3 games are. 3 Wins, and Lancaster has now beaten every team he has played during his 'reign', including every top team. This will mark a real improvement over 3 years ago. However if we lose this next match to the Boks, Lancaster will be in a position whereby the best he can do is match previous years record, which isn't much to aim for and may see further erosion of confidence.

Despite what I've just said, its the players who need to take responsibility for the key moments on the field. Lancaster did not make Mike Brown drop that ball which could have taken us into a 12 - 0 lead. Coaches are responsible for developing, somehow, the skill level of the players; but they're not responsible for their skill levels in absolute terms.

I believe only a wider cultural shift in the Northern hemipshere will bring our absolute skill levels closer to those of the Southern teams. i don't think that Lancaster and Catt can address this in the space of a few weeks training camps.
 
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Bracken making some excellent different views to what the rest of the media are saying.

http://talksport.com/rugby-union/ex...england-coach-lancasters-excuses-141111123888


“There are a lot of question marks about this Lancaster reign,†said the former England scrum-half, ahead of this weekend’s second autumn international against South Africa.

“In the summer they had three losses against New Zealand and, whilst a few players were injured, they [the coaching staff] were rewarded with contracts until 2019. It’s the same old, same old.

“Whilst our pack are able to compete with the best in the world like New Zealand, our backs are all over the place, and consistency of selection is a problem.

“He has been given a lot of slack over the last year of two. He hasn’t won a ***le, he hasn’t won a series and now the World Cup is not far away and it is the same old excuses, which I think people are getting tired of.

“When a player is given a three, four, five year contract, more often than not that player will have poor performances, because they are settled, there are no concerns, no worries. Why would we reward failure? You come back from losing a Test series 3-0 and you get awarded a contract to 2019.

“We have got a World Cup not too long away in England and, to be honest, anything but reaching the final will be a failure. This England team are capable of going a long away.

“They have put a lot of faith in Lancaster and consistently after every game for the last two to three years all we hear are the same old sound bites. Enough is enough. It is about winning.

“We are facing South Africa, who will be hurt from the weekend [defeat against Ireland]. It is about time we started fronting up and winning these important games and not coming out with sound bites.

“All I’ve heard recently is it is all about the emblem on the shirt and having pride in the shirt. Enough is enough. I want to see results.â€

Read more at http://talksport.com/rugby-union/ex...ters-excuses-141111123888#cMIx7FOO5KJ4x4rv.99

Should listen to the interview imo.
 
Lancaster's record is definitely better than Johnson's... what do you think the scorelines would have been on the NZ tour under him?
I think they would be much, much worse.

As Henry says, whether Lancaster is the man to take us forward from the point he's brought us to is another matter.
I actually think Lancaster is fantastic at what he does - the trouble is that he is basically the manager.
Unless someone knows differently, I think Stuart does actually fulfill the role that a GM does in most other setups.

I was and still am very happy that he has signed a long contract extension.
What I'm not happy about is the fact that the other coaches have too...

I think having a coach that is at once both the defense and attack coach is a bad situation to be in.
It's a conflict of interests IMO - and making sure the defense is tight is less liable to make him look a *** than if it was the other way round.

I think the Argentina tour showed that with different coaches Lancaster can produce some wonderful attacking rugby.
The style of play we saw on that tour was very different to anything we've seen before or since IMO - and squaring that purely on the opposition is wrong.

I do feel that bringing in an attack coach could help improve the team significantly, so long as that coach was given as much seniority and influence as others.
 
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Bracken making some excellent different views to what the rest of the media are saying.

http://talksport.com/rugby-union/ex...england-coach-lancasters-excuses-141111123888


"There are a lot of question marks about this Lancaster reign," said the former England scrum-half, ahead of this weekend's second autumn international against South Africa.

"In the summer they had three losses against New Zealand and, whilst a few players were injured, they [the coaching staff] were rewarded with contracts until 2019. It's the same old, same old.

"Whilst our pack are able to compete with the best in the world like New Zealand, our backs are all over the place, and consistency of selection is a problem.

"He has been given a lot of slack over the last year of two. He hasn't won a ***le, he hasn't won a series and now the World Cup is not far away and it is the same old excuses, which I think people are getting tired of.

"When a player is given a three, four, five year contract, more often than not that player will have poor performances, because they are settled, there are no concerns, no worries. Why would we reward failure? You come back from losing a Test series 3-0 and you get awarded a contract to 2019.

"We have got a World Cup not too long away in England and, to be honest, anything but reaching the final will be a failure. This England team are capable of going a long away.

"They have put a lot of faith in Lancaster and consistently after every game for the last two to three years all we hear are the same old sound bites. Enough is enough. It is about winning.

"We are facing South Africa, who will be hurt from the weekend [defeat against Ireland]. It is about time we started fronting up and winning these important games and not coming out with sound bites.

"All I've heard recently is it is all about the emblem on the shirt and having pride in the shirt. Enough is enough. I want to see results."

Read more at http://talksport.com/rugby-union/ex...ters-excuses-141111123888#cMIx7FOO5KJ4x4rv.99

Should listen to the interview imo.

Kyran Bracken imho is one of the worst and most badly informed pundits in the media, i've heard him numerous times on Brian Moores show and he has little understanding of modern rugby or what's going on - did anyone hear his solution on concussion testing? it was;

"make the guy run up and down the touchline for a bit, doing 20 meter sprints. do some push ups and burpees and see if he is ok after that? if he is then send him back on."

He should be a bit more precise, he wants results the only team Lanco hasn't beaten in three years is SA, he has beaten everyone else, and the 6nations teams consistently - yes they dropped a game but who else hasn't? He means he wants results against the top 3, and yeah we cam back froma 3-0 whitewash but how many teams have series wins in NZ?

yes, i'm sorry but Kieran Bracken can ***** off back to the Dancing on ice tour..


I do feel that bringing in an attack coach could help improve the team significantly, so long as that coach was given as much seniority and influence as others.

They have one of the best attack coaches in the European game involved in their team, they just need to let him do what he does best.
 
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I agree on that, Bracken is a ***.

They have one of the ebst attack coaches in the European game involved in their team, they just need to let him do what he does best.

Yeah, well, that's the point, isn't it? He was brought in as a skills coach.

He's the ****ing waterboy - not the attack coach.
 
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Well then you need to define how you are measuring progress, because according to bracken it's results driven only.

It's clear to the whole world that England is in a far better place than under johnson, but if it's only down to results then any coach who ins't in charge of the all blacks is in for it.
 
When has England actually looked like a team that could be world champions? Once in 2012 against NZ since then 19 games have been played and we have failed to look anywhere near that good.

I don't agree England were better off than they were with Johnson, but Lancster has still imo been given to much slack.
 
If you're having to ask how we've improved you probably don't remember how dire England were a lot of the time back then.

Lancaster will be given stick if we don't perform in this series - the press have been rumbling, but they are hardly going to lay into him bigstyle after a 3 point loss to NZ.
 
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Like I say... I don't think you are recognising how ****ing appallingly bad some of the games we saw under previous coaches were.
 
They certainly looked world class in last years 6nations and playing in the NZ this summer. In the 6N they lost narrowly to France and dispatched everyone else comfortably including the eventual winners. They went to NZ and ran them close with a B team and their first choice team, got whipped with the be team again in the third.

As i said they've also beaten everyone bar SA, so i'm not sure what more people expect - the losses have all been close against TOP 4, the only odd result in that whole period of time was the Wales walloping in 2012.

From the minute Johnson took over there were off field discipline problems and our form fluctuated horrifically.
 
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