League of Nations

[bushytop]

Im not really in the pro relegation camp but how many times have the home nations came last in the last 20 years?

... not only that but we saw what Italy (the perennial spoon-feeders) thump Georgia last year.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Im not really in the pro relegation camp but how many times have the home nations came last in the last 20 years?

Scotland fairly recently and multiple times, Wales definitely won the spoon in the 00's once or twice and I doubt England have since the 70s?

Of the other nations France in 2013 and Ireland haven't finished last since the 90s.

Tbh I don't want relegation right now, Georgia are the only team capable of promotion and that'd mean a dip in profits and a far worse and less accessible away day than Rome, if it was Spain, Germany, Portugal etc... Looking for promotion I'd be all for it. Fairly narrow view I know but I'm an Ireland fan and a consumer at the end of the day, I want the best for me.

 

[bushytop]

Scotland fairly recently and multiple times, Wales definitely won the spoon in the 00's once or twice and I doubt England have since the 70s?

Of the other nations France in 2013 and Ireland haven't finished last since the 90s.

Tbh I don't want relegation right now, Georgia are the only team capable of promotion and that'd mean a dip in profits and a far worse and less accessible away day than Rome, if it was Spain, Germany, Portugal etc... Looking for promotion I'd be all for it. Fairly narrow view I know but I'm an Ireland fan and a consumer at the end of the day, I want the best for me.

The last Wales one... and only one since the 6N began was 2003. As you say, Ireland and England are the only sides who haven't had the pleasure since Italy were introduced.

 

[Scotty]

Scotland fairly recently and multiple times, Wales definitely won the spoon in the 00's once or twice and I doubt England have since the 70s?

Of the other nations France in 2013 and Ireland haven't finished last since the 90s.

Tbh I don't want relegation right now, Georgia are the only team capable of promotion and that'd mean a dip in profits and a far worse and less accessible away day than Rome, if it was Spain, Germany, Portugal etc... Looking for promotion I'd be all for it. Fairly narrow view I know but I'm an Ireland fan and a consumer at the end of the day, I want the best for me.

I agree id have loved a team like that to come good and earn promotion but it hasnt happened and its a shame but we have to give it on merit and thats Georgia. I like it how it is tbh all i want to change in the 6N is how the fixtures are decided, i think it needs to be more random. Or least something done.

 

[bushytop]

I agree id have loved a team like that to come good and earn promotion but it hasnt happened and its a shame but we have to give it on merit and thats Georgia. I like it how it is tbh all i want to change in the 6N is how the fixtures are decided, i think it needs to be more random. Or least something done.

If they randomised it, you could end up playing the same country away from home twice in a row. The way it is now, is probably the only fair way.

 

[Scotty]

If they randomised it, you could end up playing the same country away from home twice in a row. The way it is now, is probably the only fair way.

Yes but atm theres 2 ways it can be and flips between them. Their must be a better way. Maybe have multiple sets of fixtures and pick them randomly but so they all used therefore it is fair over the next say 4 years but in a random order. Maybe thats a terrible idea but there has to be a better one than what we have got currently. Not that it will matter when we LoN comes in.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Could switch up the order every two years like the pro14, you'd have two home/away games in a row often enough but it'd be a bit more random and less advantageous to some nations.

 

[bushytop]

Yes but atm theres 2 ways it can be and flips between them. Their must be a better way. Maybe have multiple sets of fixtures and pick them randomly but so they all used therefore it is fair over the next say 4 years but in a random order. Maybe thats a terrible idea but there has to be a better one than what we have got currently. Not that it will matter when we LoN comes in.

It sounds easy to solve... until you actually try and solve it, then all theories (at least the ones I've heard to this point) are worse than the way it currently works. Every team has their perceived easy year and hard year, though both hold their own difficulties.

I'd be open to listening to other ideas though.

 

[bushytop]

Could switch up the order every two years like the pro14, you'd have two home/away games in a row often enough but it'd be a bit more random and less advantageous to some nations.

Who gets the advantage in your opinion?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Who gets the advantage in your opinion?

Depends on the year, right now Wales have a great shot at a slam on odd years, not having to go to Dublin or Cardiff, same with England on even years. Ireland had it last decade and didn't take advantage for the most part in odd years not traveling to London or Paris. It's cyclical but these cycles last about 10 years and to be honest it doesn't look like there'll be much substantial change between the top and bottom three for a long time right now.

Edit: before I get called out for whining, Ireland have a better chance at more championships having a he game v one of the two rivals every year, but no one really cares about championships in the long run!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

the way i see it, there is a difference between "top quality rugby" and and "interesting and engaging comp" and they dont necessarily go hand in hand

Promotion and relegation my lower the over all quality of the comp but for me at least it raises the interest hugely. I compare it to my football team in league one (AFC Wimbledon), quality nowhere near the prem league but there were still 8 teams that could get relegated with three weeks left and so it was fascinating to watch, full crowds everywhere because people wanted to see the great escape, it doubles the important games at the end of the season

promotion/relegation in my mind opens the sport even more and may allow it to grow, closed shop means more of the same and having to keep changing comps to keep things fresh (super rugby)....Super Rugby may be a great example of skill level...i don't think any claims its a great competition

 

[bushytop]

Depends on the year, right now Wales have a great shot at a slam on odd years, not having to go to Dublin or Cardiff, same with England on even years. Ireland had it last decade and didn't take advantage for the most part in odd years not traveling to London or Paris. It's cyclical but these cycles last about 10 years and to be honest it doesn't look like there'll be much substantial change between the top and bottom three for a long time right now.

It really is a myth that Wales have tailor-made fixtures to generate slams (and I'm not saying that is what you're saying, but it is something that gets peddled around here... I've seen it alluded to). People 'see' what they need to see to justify their own perceptions as being correct. A lot of English and Irish people hate Wales and therefore peddle this myth to make themselves feel better about having witnessed the awful Welsh succeed.

As you say, England have exactly the same fixtures as us... and to balance the debate further exactly half of our slams in the 6N era have occurred when we have our 'difficult' year (Ireland and England away).

If we're to look at it in the perceived way... in this current cycle (of England, Ireland and Wales being the top 3 teams more often than not) England and Wales have a 'hard' year one year and an 'easy' one the next, while Ireland have an 'average' year every year. It's about as balanced as it could be really.

 

[Scotty]

It really is a myth that Wales have tailor-made fixtures to generate slams (and I'm not saying that is what you're saying, but it is something that gets peddled around here... I've seen it alluded to). People 'see' what they need to see to justify their own perceptions as being correct. A lot of English and Irish people hate Wales and therefore peddle this myth to make themselves feel better about having witnessed the awful Welsh succeed.

As you say, England have exactly the same fixtures as us... and to balance the debate further exactly half of our slams in the 6N era have occurred when we have our 'difficult' year (Ireland and England away).

If we're to look at it in the perceived way... in this current cycle (of England, Ireland and Wales being the top 3 teams more often than not) England and Wales have a 'hard' year one year and an 'easy' one the next, while Ireland have an 'average' year every year. It's about as balanced as it could be really.

I agree in terms of perceived top 3 and how this affects them but i just dont like the same 2 year cycle. I just want more variation, there must be a good way to improve it thTs all im saying

 

[mdaclarke]

I personally would love a closed shop 10 team tier 1 only tournament. Rugby has to hold on to what is has got. It will loose far more by a Tier 1 team like Australia getting relegated than it would lose by Georgia getting promoted.

Australia getting relegated would destroy Australian Rugby and that loss to Rugby would not be made up by Georgia. The risk reward is too great.

Also with no promotion/relegation the nations can experiment more secure in their position.

 

[bushytop]

I agree in terms of perceived top 3 and how this affects them but i just dont like the same 2 year cycle. I just want more variation, there must be a good way to improve it thTs all im saying

I get it, it's just surprisingly difficult to come up with a suitable solution. The only thing that I can see would be better in terms of fixtures (but before you all pile on I know it is in no way feasible) would be a 10 match 6N and all teams get played home and away.

As far as I can tell, to mess with the current fixture list would be messing with the order these teams have played each other since time immemorial. If you go back to the Five and even Home Nations tournaments, this was the fixture list. Now I'm not saying it couldn't be done better (though that remains to be seen) but you'd be messing with a pretty big tradition of the tournament, namely 'we play you at home this year and away the next'.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It really is a myth that Wales have tailor-made fixtures to generate slams (and I'm not saying that is what you're saying, but it is something that gets peddled around here... I've seen it alluded to). People 'see' what they need to see to justify their own perceptions as being correct. A lot of English and Irish people hate Wales and therefore peddle this myth to make themselves feel better about having witnessed the awful Welsh succeed.

As you say, England have exactly the same fixtures as us... and to balance the debate further exactly half of our slams in the 6N era have occurred when we have our 'difficult' year (Ireland and England away).

If we're to look at it in the perceived way... in this current cycle (of England, Ireland and Wales being the top 3 teams more often than not) England and Wales have a 'hard' year one year and an 'easy' one the next, while Ireland have an 'average' year every year. It's about as balanced as it could be really.

I never said anything about grand slams being easier for Wales, it'd be stupid when two of their last three came in an even year, when Wales get a sniff of a slam they don't **** it up! You missed my edit I think, I more or less said exactly what you have in the last paragraph, it should be a bit more random though don't you think? You can't deny that it's easier to win a slam not having to go to Dublin, London or Cardiff, and if one of two teams every year have that opportunity and the other team among the contenders never does something is a bit off.

At the moment luck of the draw is absolutely huge in the six nations to the point that having a Sunday game in R1 or R4 or even playing Italy at the wrong time can be a massive disadvantage. It doesn't make sense to have the most important aspect of that luck, home and away fixtures, set in stone when the challenge could be more varied and result in the exact same number of home and away games if you ask me.

 

[bushytop]

I never said anything about grand slams being easier for Wales, it'd be stupid when two of their last three came in an even year, when Wales get a sniff of a slam they don't **** it up! You missed my edit I think, I more or less said exactly what you have in the last paragraph, it should be a bit more random though don't you think? You can't deny that it's easier to win a slam not having to go to Dublin, London or Cardiff, and if one of two teams every year have that opportunity and the other team among the contenders never does something is a bit off.

At the moment luck of the draw is absolutely huge in the six nations to the point that having a Sunday game in R1 or R4 or even playing Italy at the wrong time can be a massive disadvantage. It doesn't make sense to have the most important aspect of that luck, home and away fixtures, set in stone when the challenge could be more varied and result in the exact same number of home and away games if you ask me.

I did miss your edit and I agree with it too.

As I've said in a few of my posts, if there is a better alternative I'd be happy to listen to it but for something that seems so simple it's surprisingly difficult to come up with something that wouldn't put at least someone's nose severely out.

What I would say is that, although I don't think you can mess with the years that you play particular teams (I've mentioned it earlier but this has been the order since the nineteenth century) maybe a seeding system could be brought in. This would use the finishing positions in the table from the previous year to dictate when teams would play each other the following year... ie England vs Wales would be the final game as those two teams finished 2nd and 1st. That same weekend would start with Italy (6th) vs Scotland (5th) and then France (4th) vs Ireland (3rd).

 

[bushytop]

At the moment luck of the draw is absolutely huge in the six nations to the point that having a Sunday game in R1 or R4 or even playing Italy at the wrong time can be a massive disadvantage. It doesn't make sense to have the most important aspect of that luck, home and away fixtures, set in stone when the challenge could be more varied and result in the exact same number of home and away games if you ask me.

I'm definitely with you on the whole Sunday thing... I don't think there should even be Sunday games (or Friday games for that matter). I think each 6N weekend should have all games on a Saturday but that's just me.

 

[bakakumon]

World Rugby discontinues Nations Championship plans
https://www.world.rugby/news/431488

Oh...finally it is dropped

 

[bushytop]

Oh...finally it is dropped

Dayum!