League of Nations

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Personally, I'm not sure why the Pacific Islands player's union objects to one proposed closed shop, but doesn't voice the same objection to the current closed shop which appears set to continue ad infinitum.

 

[Which Tyler]

Because one closed shop shuts them out forever and ever, whilst the other still gives them 2-3 matches a year against the top tier, and leaves the door open for the future

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Because one closed shop shuts them out forever and ever, whilst the other still gives them 2-3 matches a year against the top tier, and leaves the door open for the future

Only 12 years. That is a blink of an eye compared to how long Tier1 have been shutting out the PIs. You believe the door is open for the future with the status quo and the death of the World League proposal was clearly at the hands of Tier 1 unions?

On reflection that might be fair. The mood music is that it was the 6N unions who were most opposed to relegation and the PIs are SH. However NZ's Tew has been vocal in his opposition to letting Japan into the RC.

If the PI players union is satisfied with the de facto exclusion from top flight competitive tournaments other than the World Cup, and with being tossed the bone of a few Tier1 matches a year, then more fool them.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

Rumour in Twitter is that a 6N source revealed the "plans" to the NZ herald in the hope that there would be a positive reaction from the article as it cake from NZ... makes sense really as Pichot and others have basically said that the article is wrong. Also someone from WR (can't remember who!) tweeted that the PI teams wouldn't be excluded or something to that regard.

Hopefully then the plans we've seen are just the 6N's plans and not the final edition

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or, even better: The whole things dies a death and we don't get some bullshit watered down yearly world cup.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Or, even better: The whole things dies a death and we don't get some bullshit watered down yearly world cup.

It's bad enough Ireland go out in the quarter final of the World Cup every 4 years. It'd be heartbreaking if the World League was given the go ahead and we'd be knocked out in the last 8 every year. That alone should be reason for the IRFU not to back it.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Rumour in Twitter is that a 6N source revealed the "plans" to the NZ herald in the hope that there would be a positive reaction from the article as it cake from NZ... makes sense really as Pichot and others have basically said that the article is wrong. Also someone from WR (can't remember who!) tweeted that the PI teams wouldn't be excluded or something to that regard.

Hopefully then the plans we've seen are just the 6N's plans and not the final edition

Doesn't make sense though, the Six Nations in general were opposed to the whole thing. If they leaked those plans it'd have been to provoke a negative reaction to kill the whole thing.

 

[bushytop]

Sorry in advance for the length of this post but there is a lot to go through... and I probably still haven't been as clear as I'd have liked due to a busy Sunday morning...

I'm a bit conflicted about all this world league tbh... on the one hand it would definitely be to the detriment of the World Cup as well as looking like giving the Tier 2 nations the short shrift. Then there is also the player welfare issues of playing that many consecutive test matches at the utmost intensity. So there are three big issues that has me against the idea... but I can't deny the appeal of summer and autumn tests 'contributing' to some 'endgame'.

Promotion & relegation is obviously a quick fix to one of the drawbacks but I'd imagine that the 'worry' as far as world rugby are concerned is that once they manage to get two of the worlds biggest economies onboard (USA & Japan) probable relegation for one of them at the end of their first season would probably kill off any interest garnered... but at least Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and Georgia would have a route to the big table. As everyone seems to agree, Rugby has to incorporate a potential route to success for all countries who take up the game or it will never achieve its true potential.

The probable detriment to the World Cup is, you would think enough to stop this idea in its tracks. The growth of the World Cup since 1987 has been huge (I, together with many of my colleagues plan our annual leave so we don't miss a thing)... and in total opposition to the World/Nations League proposal, has been a positive driver for International rugby at all levels. So I think it would in all probability endanger the game holistically rather than strengthen it.

Player welfare-wise, the ONLY way it would work is if World Rugby could 'somehow' enforce more rest on elite players when at their clubs/regions/provinces etc. With the power that the French and English club systems wield, I just don't see how this could ever happen... and therefore a no-go.

... but as I stated earlier, there is this 'allure' of 'meaningful' games (in place of the test matches that currently count for no more than ranking points). I've put a lot of thought into how this 'could' work without reinforcing the major issues that are against it and... well it really is a tough one... but here goes...

Promotion/relegation - if annual/bi-annual relegation is so much of a worry, the only thing I can think of is a home and away play-off series between the bottom of both the 6N and the proposed SH 6N and the teams that have finished top of the tier below... so for arguments sake Italy vs Georgia and USA vs Fiji. I know this just adds two further games to the schedule (seemingly being counter-intuitive to the issue of player welfare but bare with me and I'll get to that later).

Detriment to the World Cup - don't make it 'every' year. If there are 3 years between each World Cup, have this Nations Cup (in what ever format it is eventually finalised) occur on one or two of those years... probably two as it would give each team an opportunity to play each opposition at home. This would leave one year where the Lions tour could take place. I do think that this would probably still have some negative effects on the World Cup but at least it wouldn't be every year. The suggestion I'll make about the format (in Player welfare) could help maintain the 'USP' of the World Cup further.

Player welfare - instead of playing everyone, I think that depending on the standings at the end of the NH & SH 6 Nations tournaments, these should dictate whom should play whom from the two separate comps, moving forwards for the remainder of the season. For example, if we take last years standings, Ireland and Wales would play games against NZ and SA in the summer. Scotland and France would have faced Oz and Arg, while England and Italy would face Japan and USA. Then depending on the outcomes of those matches, this would dictate who would play whom in a three match test series in the autumn for 'final' standings. The 'potential' issue here is that the 'ultimate' test series could be between two SH or two NH sides but if those two sides are the best it would still be a series worthy of hype I'm sure. There would be three test series' for all teams, dictated to by both their finish in their 6N's and how they fared in their summer series tests. The results of the eventual three test series' would dictate the 'placings' on the 12 team ladder. This format would mean 'less' games (by two if my calculations are correct) per season for players to play at this level, which can only be a good thing. And it is this two game 'saving' that would 'allow' for a two game play-off between the bottom finishing teams from the top table (one each from NH and SH) and the top finishing teams from the North and Souths second tiers.

So that's my two penneth... there is a lot to go through and 'still' many issues which I'm sure you guys pick the bones out of but interested to hear your ideas.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Uruguay succeed in making a mockery of the proposed new version of a closed shop by beating the US in their back yard. They are now ranked 16th compared to the US 15th.

 

[higgik]

Still think that a four year cycle of
RWC, Lions, Regional Champs, World League
is the ideal situation.

Move the July tests to September, move the November tests to October and run as one complete block of 7 weeks.

Regional champs, (using Euro/Africa as example)
10 teams in 2 groups of 5 play home or away, with top 2 in each group playing in semi finals and also qualifying for World League.
Teams would be 6N plus South Africa, and next highest ranked 3 teams from Euro/Africa.
Group A: Ireland, SA, Scotland, Italy, Romania
Group B: Wales, England, France, Georgia, Spain

This would be maximum of 6 matches over 7 weeks. T2 teams get opportunity to play T1.

Similar for Asia/Pacific and Americas.

World League has divisions of 6 teams, (2 from each), again giving T2 teams opportunity to play T1.
This would be home or away series, (careful planning with travel needed), giving 5 matches in 7 weeks, like the current 6N.
Using current WR,
Div 1: Ireland, Wales, NZ, Australia, Argentina, USA, meaning the Bledisloe would have 3rd match.
Div 2: England, SA, Fiji, Japan, Uruguay, Canada

On the idea of 6N and RC, I would move the 6N to August and add in Japan and USA team to the RC. Play them both at the same time with 5 matches over 7 weeks.
Then add a PI team to Super Rugby.

 

[bushytop]

Still think that a four year cycle of
RWC, Lions, Regional Champs, World League
is the ideal situation.

Move the July tests to September, move the November tests to October and run as one complete block of 7 weeks.

Regional champs, (using Euro/Africa as example)
10 teams in 2 groups of 5 play home or away, with top 2 in each group playing in semi finals and also qualifying for World League.
Teams would be 6N plus South Africa, and next highest ranked 3 teams from Euro/Africa.
Group A: Ireland, SA, Scotland, Italy, Romania
Group B: Wales, England, France, Georgia, Spain

This would be maximum of 6 matches over 7 weeks. T2 teams get opportunity to play T1.

Similar for Asia/Pacific and Americas.

World League has divisions of 6 teams, (2 from each), again giving T2 teams opportunity to play T1.
This would be home or away series, (careful planning with travel needed), giving 5 matches in 7 weeks, like the current 6N.
Using current WR,
Div 1: Ireland, Wales, NZ, Australia, Argentina, USA, meaning the Bledisloe would have 3rd match.
Div 2: England, SA, Fiji, Japan, Uruguay, Canada

On the idea of 6N and RC, I would move the 6N to August and add in Japan and USA team to the RC. Play them both at the same time with 5 matches over 7 weeks.
Then add a PI team to Super Rugby.

Not a bad format... deffo agree on the 6N and the Rugby Championship (whatever format that becomes over the next few years) should be played at the same time. There's been talk of a 'global' season for years now but it still doesn't look like actually happening.

 

[Leinster Fan]

One thing I'll never understand is the seemingly endless obsession with moving the Six Nations. One of the reasons it works so well is that it has comparatively little competition from other sports, it's a relatively quiet part of the football year before the Premier League ***le race properly gets going in April, and most sports usually have their off season about now. Any move to the Summer would lead to it being completely eclipsed by the GAA season in Ireland, depending on where we put it we'd have Soccer world cups/Euro Champs/Olympics to deal with as well, all of which would comfortably overshadow the 6N as well. I also hate the idea of it being reduced to a warm up competition every four years for the World Cup.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

My take on this is it's the same plan that was derided during the week but throw Fiji in instead of the USA. It's still bullshit, panders to the tier 1 nations and must be stopped. Why exclude other tier 2 countries from the discussions if you want to "consider the way forward for an annual international competition"? Do their opinions not matter because they aren't as well established or don't have big enough economies?

Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times today says that the 6 Nations and Rugby Championship want a 10 team tournament amongst themselves only.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Wanting Pro/Rel is all well and good but the reality is that relegation would bankrupt almost every union except England and maybe SA/France. No one wants a closed shop, but classic promotion/relegation isn't a viable solution either.

 

[bushytop]

Somethings gotta change though as the status quo is already a closed shop... albeit with tier 1 nation playing one or two 'friendlies' against tier 2 nations a year (or less depending on the nation).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just force more games against tier 2 in the summer and autumn.
Creating a whole new comp for it is BS, unless they're reinstating the Churchill cup


I'm genuinely amazed they'd do anything that threatens the success of the world cup.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Somethings gotta change though as the status quo is already a closed shop... albeit with tier 1 nation playing one or two 'friendlies' against tier 2 nations a year (or less depending on the nation).

Not denying that at all, but I've yet to see an alternative that's better than the current system (which is hardly great). As Olly says though, forcing every Tier 1 team to play a set number of games against Tier 2 teams a year would be a big help.

 

[bushytop]

Just force more games against tier 2 in the summer and autumn.

Easier said than done mind... everyone (NH) wants to play New Zealand... everyone (SH) wants to play England (& now Ireland to a slightly lesser extent).

 

[bushytop]

Not denying that at all, but I've yet to see an alternative that's better than the current system (which is hardly great). As Olly says though, forcing every Tier 1 team to play a set number of games against Tier 2 teams a year would be a big help.

I agree on the proposed alternatives not really being fit for purpose... it's a difficult problem to solve... and maybe as fans of tier 1 nations we are too invested to have a truly objective view (we are probably both terrified of the implications should Ireland in your case, or Wales in mine, get relegated). Sometimes a leap of faith is required I guess. I think the imposed changes to the Pro 14 (less teams qualifying for the Champions Cup... and only teams who have qualified by right) has been a positive for the league... Maybe, something similar (though how it would work I have no idea) is required (or will be required) to fully grow the game within areas that other sports already have a dominance.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The 6 Nations is the cash cow for participating countries and nobody will want to give that up. Is it possible to have relegation from the World League yet not be relegated from the 6 Nations?

For example, Italy finish bottom of both the 6 Nations and World League and are relegated from the latter. Georgia win promotion to the World League yet don't get access to the 6 Nations.Georgia play all other 11 teams in the World League in tests but Italy retain their place in the 6 Nations competition and continue to play England, France, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.